Your Money’s Carbon Secret and What to Do About It - Dan Sherrard-Smith is RightOffTrack | Anya Smith

Anya Smith (00:02.234)
Hey friends, welcome to another adventure with RightOffTrack, your favorite entrepreneurial podcast where we dive deep into the transformative minds of purposeful entrepreneurs. I'm your host Anya Smith, and let me tell you, today's episode is loaded with value that could quite literally change how you do business and see the world. Our special guest has had an epic journey from landing the best deal ever on Dragon's Den, which is UK's version of Shark Tank,

to pioneering a path in green finance. We'll get to explore his mindset, how he found his passion to sustainability space, and his tactical advice on how you can better financial decisions that benefit not just your bottom line, but also the planet. Trust me, by the end of this episode, you'll walk away with actionable insights that can help you level up in your own journey, whether you're a business maven, a sustainability enthusiast, or just someone eager to make a meaningful impact.

So fasten your seatbelts as we prepare to dive deep with the founder and CEO of MotherTreat, Dan Sherrard-Smith. You don't wanna miss this. Welcome, Dan. So excited to have you here.

Dan (01:11.864)
And it's fantastic to be here. Thanks for having me.

Anya Smith (01:16.218)
My pleasure and quick shout out to Roman who introduced, I think it was also his birthday the other day, 25 and just rocking the world. But I'm amazed by the introductions happening in the world and he was passionate about sustainability. He's like, hey, let me introduce you to Dan. He's doing this amazing work. So thank you for being here.

Dan (01:33.65)
Oh, well great. Well yeah, O'Roman, a thank you. He's a real legend in this space. He's a great person to know.

Anya Smith (01:41.186)
Yes. And let's dive a little bit back into you. So you've been a serial entrepreneur and most recently you've switched into the sustainability space. So can you share a little bit of background about your story and what got to you to where you are today?

Dan (01:57.93)
Yeah, absolutely. So I was, I was on the founding team of a business called Look After My Bills, which as you mentioned, had the best ever deal on Dragon's Den. We saved the British public 127 million pounds in three years. And we successfully exited, yeah, yes. We were, we were pleased with that for sure. We successfully exited to a company called Go Compare, who are one of the

Anya Smith (02:15.446)
Wow.

Dan (02:25.742)
price comparison sites here in the UK. And while working at our time at Go Compare, my wife became pregnant. We've now got a two and a half year old boy called Theo. And it really made me question where I was spending my time. And it sounds a bit cliched, but I sort of have this image at some point, Theo's gonna ask me, what did I do when I realized the extent of the climate crisis? And...

I just want to be able to tell him that I did all I could with the skills that I had. And so I left that comfortable job, it had become a comfortable job by then. And I just started researching what has become Mother Tree. So, you know, there's a kind of long story behind that research that we can get into if you want, but ultimately, yeah, that's what led me to leave, look after my bills and launch Mother Tree.

Anya Smith (03:12.09)
Yeah.

Anya Smith (03:18.642)
Absolutely. So yeah, let's talk a little bit about the inception of Mother Tree. Like what problems were you solving, you know, and given your background and how did that idea go from again, conception to actualization?

Dan (03:32.17)
Yeah, so at the start, I had no idea where I was going to focus. I just knew it was to do with how can I play my part to address the climate crisis? And so I just started interviewing people and crucially listening, listening to CEOs, CFOs, sustainability professionals, stay at home mums and dads, and all sorts of people, just hearing about their own experience of the climate crisis and what they were doing and what they were not doing, what they were struggling with.

And my wife, who's very much been on this journey with me, she's an incredible business coach, she came up with the idea of something called the climate challenge, which this is about two years ago. Uh, which back then was basically for me ways to run free, free focus groups, but for the people involved and me included was a way to figure out, you know, how can we live a more sustainable lifestyle? So it was groups of eight people. We ran five of these groups.

Over the course of a month, we tried 30 different actions to live sustainably. We went vegan for the day. We got rid of single use plastic. We looked at our carbon footprint, all the kind of, you know, traditional things that you might read in the blog and two actions above all else had a real, quite profound impact on, on a lot of the groups and me included the first time I went through the climate challenge, you know, I found out where my bank was investing and where my pension was being invested. And it was such a shock.

Anya Smith (04:38.79)
Right.

Dan (04:55.79)
2% of my pension was going to BP and Shell, 1% was going to British American Tobacco, 1% to weapons. And these are just things that I'd never choose to invest in and yet every month some of my cash had been going there. And at the same time, I looked at my bills bank account. We were with Lloyds. Lloyds have put 12 billion pounds into oil and gas since 2016. So, you know, well over a billion pounds a year. So just by being with that bank, we're kind of endorsing their

Anya Smith (05:09.923)
right.

Anya Smith (05:22.587)
Yeah.

Dan (05:25.282)
their investment policy. So that's where we spent a lot of our early days at Mother Tree, just figuring out what exactly is going on here and how can we make this pretty opaque world a bit more transparent for businesses and consumers. So about a year and a half ago, we launched what I'm pretty sure remains the UK's first and only money carbon calculator. So like we have a lifestyle carbon calculator that looks at how we travel and...

what we eat, we don't really think about our money in the same way, but it hasn't really similar impact. So we're able to show, you know, our clients how much carbon their bank is, they're sort of, you know, 10,000 pounds in the current account, I guess in the US, $10,000 in the checking account would be the equivalent, how much carbon that really is accountable for and it's based on how the banks are investing. So it looks at the banks.

Anya Smith (06:19.974)
Mm-hmm.

Dan (06:20.422)
own car with footprints and their reports, we also look at where they're lending money. So we build up a much more transparent view, you know, we're basically trying to show you what the banks don't want to tell you.

Anya Smith (06:31.874)
Yeah, and I love so much about this. I love that as an entrepreneur, you had this mindset, let's test it out. Like I have a hunch that I could be doing more, but I'm not sure where I would go with this. And as a true entrepreneur, like I'm gonna do the test groups, and whatever context it was in, but you were actually gonna say, what is actually gonna make the dent, and what is gonna have the impact? And it seemed it also played really well with your previous strengths, right? So a lot of times we...

play on what we have and it seemed to correlate really well over there. And I'm curious, just what kind of impact can changing your financial institution have? So say somebody is doing this carbonation, they look on paper like, oh, that doesn't seem quite well. But what kind of impact has somebody's change had when they looked at this carbon front front, worked with you, and then made this transition? And then maybe can you give the context from the CO2 numbers for somebody who's maybe like, oh, that sounds big. What does that transfer to so that we can maybe understand better?

Dan (07:32.194)
Well, the difference is huge. So when we work with, with clients and, you know, for the typical. So the average UK business, they have about 10 employees and I don't know the stats in the U S but I'd be surprised if it's basically different to that. 10 employees. What we do is we work with them to understand what is their money currently doing both on a savings and returns basis, but also on a carbon emissions basis. And on a values basis. And then we figure out.

Anya Smith (07:35.515)
Mm-hmm.

Dan (08:01.954)
given those three things, are there better options out there? Are there options that match the values? Are there options that reduce the carbon and also get that business a better interest rate? Once the client's happy with the plan, we then go and do the switching paperwork on their behalf. That's one of the big things we learned to look after my bills. Just like you were saying, it's where can our skills be best deployed that we've already learned. So we do that switch on their behalf and the impact's huge. So for the average company, 10 employees,

We're saving them between 10 and 30,000 pounds a year, depending on the cash position. We're also reducing the carbon by about 70 tons per year. And we save about 40 hours of research. You know, it's a full working week. And then one thing I'd say, just to bring that values piece to life, you know, my entry point to this was the climate crisis, but through doing this work, my mind's been really open to there are, you know,

additional issues that we can absolutely tackle by making sure the finance is going to the right places. Biodiversity, gender pay gap, poverty, these things are interlinked. We worked with one client who run Facebook ads, brilliant agency called QuickFox Labs, two female founders, Emma and Amy. Emma and Amy, they recruit out of prisons and foster care and also they started their business in their 30s, they never had a female boss in their career.

The whole thing is about equality. And so when we looked at their bank, their bank was investing billions in all white male boards, all white male C-suites, and businesses without gender equality policies. And we've shifted that, we've saved them money, we've reduced their carbon. But the big thing for Emma and Amy is, now their bank has a genuinely diverse leadership team and it's investing in diverse companies. It just supports that business's mission in a much.

in a way that's more significant for them than saving money and reducing carbon.

Anya Smith (10:00.742)
I love that value alignment. And when I first heard about this idea, I thought, well, that sounds lovely, but practically speaking, is it really gonna save me money? Is it gonna be something to have to invest more and kind of compensate on the moral side? I'll feel good, but practically I have to invest more money. But here I'm hearing you say that actually, not all the time, I'm sure, but actually you could save people money and also save them the resource. So could you maybe give just maybe a big example. If you work with a client,

on average, what does that process look like? And what are some actually beneficial savings that you have seen from working together?

Dan (10:38.026)
Absolutely. So our process is, we call it the MPS process, which is M for measure, P for prioritise and S for switch. So first up, you know, we're really measuring where the business currently is for their cash. Lots of businesses keep it just in their current account. They don't even optimise it in terms of moving it to savings accounts and...

There's lots of options there. We really take our time to understand what is important to the business in terms of cash availability, as much as the business requirements for the bank and also values and reducing carbon emissions. So that's that measure phase. And that allows us to then prioritize and really look at the full market and see, see the reality of what's going on, you know, given the cash set up and can be optimized that in a little bit more than the business is currently doing, or a lot more for some businesses.

And then let's get a view on what does that optimization look like in terms of interest rates and savings rates. And once we're clear on that, we can then go and do the paperwork on, on the client's behalf. So a lot of it is just about making sure, you know, the business has three to six months runway available to pay employees to cover those things, but also the rest of that money is stored in the right kind of places to get decent return, but is also available when they need it. It's kind of those, it's those trade-offs. It's those.

pieces and then also considering the risk. You know, we do a lot of research on the banks to make sure that they can take on, you know, that kind of risk and we've seen, you know, there is risk here. Banks do go bust. Silicon Valley Bank last year as an example, but we really, you know, make sure we're working with the banks, we're contacting those banks to make sure that risk part is also managed.

Anya Smith (12:23.89)
I love that. And it sounds like a lot of work. So to me, it sounds like not only are you making a positive impact on the world, but you're also getting some financial advice. I don't know. Maybe all the clients already have this kind of top knowledge, but it sounds like they're probably also learning something about their process and getting some tips along the way.

Dan (12:43.335)
Yeah, it's definitely a learning process for clients. So we, and also I would say, you know, we make sure we bring in the experts. So we partner with financial, independent financial advisors. We partner with an organization called Small World Consulting, who's run by Mike Berners-Lee, who wrote the book, How Bad a Banana.

which is basically the carbon footprint of everything. His business has an amazing carbon footprint database, which we can tap into and really, you know, make sure the results that we're providing are accurate. And so, you know, it's not just us saying this is the result, actually it's backed by this expert, this professor. So yeah, you know, we wanted to give absolute accuracy there, but in terms of...

Anya Smith (13:08.611)
Yeah.

Dan (13:30.55)
The client is a journey. It is a journey. It's not something that we would intuitively think of our cash has such an impact here. But actually for most businesses, it's their biggest source of carbon emissions. And so there is that sense of. That kind of like, I'm not sure if I can swear on this podcast, but that, oh, shit moment, right? Like I am great. I am responsible for, for this amount of carbon just because of my choice of bank that is a.

Anya Smith (13:50.882)
You can, you totally can.

Anya Smith (13:58.2)
Yeah.

Dan (14:00.266)
We're just not aware of that as a driver for our society. So it actually is an educational piece here.

Anya Smith (14:03.43)
Yeah.

Anya Smith (14:07.042)
Yeah. And what, like, why is this so important right now? Like, what is at stake to you kind of through your involvement? Like, how are you, like, defining how important this issue is right now? And what is also, just to add to that, what is the goal for Money Tree?

Dan (14:22.794)
Yeah, so when I really sort of did my thinking around climate change a few years ago, it really struck me, this is the biggest problem humanity's ever faced, right? And it is also a problem of our own doing, but I'm excited to get to work on that problem. I love problem solving, and so why not go and solve one of the big problems of our lifetime? And when I really started to understand,

what are the factors involved in what's going on? We live in a capitalist society, where our money goes is ultimately what we're going to get. And if, as an example, if our pension is going into oil and gas, what does that mean for, you know, when we retire 30, 40 years, 50 years time, what's that world gonna look like? Is that a world that I wanna retire into? So that was my kind of in, and actually for me the really big thing here is can we get our finances

moving to places that create genuine, healthy, vibrant communities and, you know, healthy, vibrant planet. Like that is an exciting thing to get to work on. So that's kind of the big mission of Mothertree. Our goal is to switch a billion pounds into the green economy by 2025. And I forgot the final part of your question, but I think, you know, you asked about mission and big

Anya Smith (15:46.042)
That was it. That was it. That was exactly it. You know, it's funny. It sounds in a way to me like, yes, it takes the research and you have, and there's great services like yours to help make it easier. But in a way it sounds a bit more doable than always trying to, you know, like worry about what you eat every day and like every product that you use every day. You know, we want to make an impact in every part of our life, but it sounds like actually the finances in a way could be an easier and more impactful way to make that difference.

Dan (16:15.57)
Yeah, that is exactly it. And you're right, we have to make the changes at each level, but actually switching banks once you've done it and it's working for you and the business, it's done. It's kind of not a box you have to open again. What I would say is we've talked to a lot of clients who are like, yeah, I'm going to switch on my own. And then we check in six months and they haven't done it because it just doesn't get that high on the to-do list. There's other more pressing stuff. We have lives, kids to look after.

you know, assemblance of social life to keep, there's other things going on. But what we also do is then we make sure, you know, we get the, we're also able to unlock additional interest rate. So we do the switch, but we also, you know, we make sure we're getting the right, the right position on that. So, but yeah, you're absolutely right. Once it's done, it's kind of, you know, it's great. And it's just delivering for, for the business's values and, and on the interest rate as well.

Anya Smith (17:12.438)
And I'm curious, so for people who may be listening to this, I'm like, hmm, I wonder what I could be doing better if in fact my finances are a huge way I can influence carbon emissions. How can I make a better impact, whether it's go to this tool and check where I'm at, but are there other ways people can kind of help go through this process, whether it's partner, if you're maybe on their own too.

Dan (17:34.238)
Yeah, so absolutely. So I would first thing I would say is figure out what's going on with your with your money and a shameless plug, you know, have a look at my mother tree.com for that. But there are other sites that won't go into the same detail that I've seen, but we'll give you a high level picture. So, you know, bank dot green, and we'll give you a kind of high level pictures about kind of good or bad, it won't tell you exactly what's going on with your cash. But it is a good start. So yeah, just start to sort of look into what's really going on here.

And if you're not happy with that result, switch, right? There are banks out there that are genuinely delivering for this in the U.S. I've heard of Amalgamated Bank are doing great things and there are others. It's just worth doing that little bit of research to make sure at the very least your money isn't supporting sort of, you know, what I would say sort of bad actions, investments in oil and gas or weapons or factory farming, but instead is supporting a society you actually wanna...

you want to be in and you want to enjoy.

Anya Smith (18:39.362)
And I'm also curious, how are you showing up to this work? Has it changed at all in your entrepreneurial venture, how you showed up to previous opportunities that you were exploring to this one? Has the cause changed your work ethic or how you show up?

Dan (18:56.21)
Absolutely, absolutely. So, gosh, I don't know how many startups I've done so far. It's kind of literally of things, but I launched a social business in my sort of late 20s called Good Company, which became a charity, and we were connecting volunteers with the elderly. So our sort of big question was loneliness. And I realized pretty quickly on that,

It wasn't an area that really got me fired up. And we sort of struggled for about 12 to 18 months trying to make that work and it didn't work, it failed. And there's loads of amazing lessons from that. And I do think we learned the best lessons from the things that fail. And then it looked after my bills. I played a slightly different role. So I was...

Basically at the start I built the whole thing, but I was responsible for product, for tech, for customer service, for operations, for partnerships, but not the marketing side, basically everything else. And so for Mothertree, yeah, it really does change. Cause I know this is the cause that I'm in, I'm in for, for the long run. My motivations are, I've already talked about Theo.

There's, you know, I also grew up in Swansea on a near a beautiful beach. And I know if without dramatic change, we're going to lose that beach. And I've known that from the age of 12. So that's kind of been with me as a, as a feeling, as a thought. So the motivation is different, very different. And in terms of showing up, I just think, you know, it's building on all of those experiences before, all of those successes and failures. Good company failed because we designed it in a meeting room.

And I refused to do that again. So that's, you already mentioned that kind of test piece, but I'm absolutely, let's get stuff in front of people because I have an opinion, but it's just one opinion and it actually doesn't count if nobody, there's no interest in it, if there's no demand. So, uh, you know, just sort of putting those lessons together, but also having a really clear, uh, mission that I really am fired up by each day.

Anya Smith (21:01.944)
Yeah.

Anya Smith (21:11.554)
Yeah. And what advice would you give to somebody who's maybe an entrepreneur starting maybe on their journey and is doing something maybe they're not passionate about? What advice would you give them to maybe address that point in their life, like whether it's to find other inspiration or maybe test out an idea to find whatever might be more fulfilling to them.

Dan (21:33.322)
Yeah, and I went through this. I would say if you're not passionate about the idea, or at least the area you're operating in, you really have to question the motives. And I would say money's not enough, right? Like I've talked to so many founders who have made really good money, but are still feeling unfulfilled. And...

It's okay to go into an area that you're not passionate about, provided you then really, you know, you, you have that self-awareness and say, can I'm going to take these lessons and move it to an area that I am passionate about. Cause certainly from what I found, and I only talk from my experience, I work so with such, you know, have such more focus and just desire to make this work because of the area that it's in.

Anya Smith (22:14.834)
Mm-hmm.

Dan (22:29.254)
It's not about the money, although we actually, you know, we want to make sure that this company is profitable and can run and that's part of the fun of it. Much more than that, it's about the problem we're solving.

Anya Smith (22:41.853)
I'm curious, especially like you mentioned, and purpose-led?

Dan (22:53.054)
My biggest learning is it's actually a huge advantage, right? And I think that is, it was like a bit of a paradox. Oh, to be purpose led, you can't, it's kind of this like weird thinking around to be purpose led, you can't make as much money or you can't make money to have a positive impact. There's all these kinds of weird thoughts. And I get it. Money's an emotionally charged area of our lives. We have to have money to live at a certain level. Even if you want to live off grid, you still need money to fund that at some level. So.

Anya Smith (22:57.551)
Mmm.

Dan (23:23.466)
There's this really interesting intertwining of these two things. But I think in the last two or three years, we've seen a massive growth in purpose led business, people get it. And crucially, and this is why it's an advantage, consumers buy it as a result. We're seeing, you know, 60, 70% of the UK. I'd love to know the US figures, but 60% of the UK are buying now based on knowing that company is ethical. Right? So it has a huge.

competitive advantage, having those proof points to say, yeah, we are one of the good guys, we're genuine, is leading to more customers and therefore higher revenue. It's not why I do it, but it is a really important and competitive advantage nowadays.

Anya Smith (24:08.922)
And I think you quoted somewhere that about 15% of CEOs are championing sustainability. What do you think is holding the other 85% back?

Dan (24:17.726)
Yeah, I think there's a mixture of uncertainty. So, you know, the political landscape is uncertain on, you know, if my company moves, but my competitor doesn't, it's gonna cost me more money and I don't have to do it because there's no regulation in place. So why should I do it and not my competitor? So there's this kind of like, you know, uncertainty competition piece. I think there's a lack of knowledge here.

It's really interesting when I talk to CEOs and then we talk about the impact of their bank, there's just a lack of awareness of what they can do. And then understandably they have, you know, there's a real focus on, I just need to make sure this business runs, right? It's like, how do I make sure we can get leads and customers and revenue and ultimately profit.

And it feels like a distraction to be sustainability minded, but I would argue that it's, it's now, as I said, just, just a minute ago, it's now a competitive advantage, we're seeing the companies that are genuinely sustainable start to out-compete those that refuse to change. And that it's just such an exciting time to be in business as a result of that.

Anya Smith (25:32.226)
And I notice just in my entrepreneurial journey, I talked to a lot of people and the whole topic of sustainability keeps coming up. Like entrepreneurs, a lot of people actually who've made money are going pro bono or trying to be involved in these sustainability efforts. Again, not because they necessarily are in it for the money, but because they wanna do good in the world. So what has your experience been like in the sustainability community?

Dan (25:58.262)
I absolutely love it. And yeah, getting to meet people like you, like Roman, it's just such a beautiful community because I've been on the other side. I've worked at, built startups, worked at companies which weren't in this area. And it's competitive, understandably. There's this kind of piece of competition, but in the sustainability community, there's an awareness. We're all pulling in the same direction and the lack of egos involved.

and the drive to actually create a healthier world. And we've all got different ways of phrasing that. That's one of the phrases I like to say, but it's all roughly in the same direction. It's just so beautiful to get to work with those kinds of people, right? There's like no egos, there's absolute mission driven, and it's for something that's bigger and more inspiring than just ourselves, right? It's creating a...

a better planet for those that come. And I absolutely love this community. It's one of my favorite things of getting to do Mother Tree is meeting people in the sustainability community.

Anya Smith (27:09.522)
I love that. And I'm very grateful that we got to meet as well and everybody that get to meet in this space is just fascinating. And one thing that I clearly see in you is that believe that you can change the world. And I don't mean that in some kind of proud way, but you're clearly taking action to do something that is having a tangible benefit on carbon emissions. And I wonder in your sense, how do we inspire people to feel like they can do more to make a change in the world?

Dan (27:38.894)
That's a really good question. I think the first thing I found is, you know, good beats perfect. There's the sense of I have to be perfect. But we all live, we live in a capitalist consumerist world that is not built on a circular economy. There are just things inbuilt that it's impossible to be perfect right now. But we're building towards that.

And it puts a lot of pressure on, you know, thinking I have to be perfect. It puts a lot of pressure on to take any change if it's not the sort of absolute perfect change. So I think there's a sense of, you know, good beats perfect, just keep taking those actions, keep exploring, try on things to see if it actually fits your lifestyle, right? That's something that we worked with the climate challenge on, it's not every change is the right change for everybody.

So, you know, it is absolutely fine to just say, you know, good beats perfect. So I dropped my pen if you can hear that rattle. But also, yeah, exactly. It stopped rolling now. Yeah, good beats perfect. But also, you know, it's an acceptance. Every single change does make a difference.

Anya Smith (28:41.431)
Oh no.

Dan (28:55.026)
If you choose to, you know, for my side bank or the certain bank, you're supporting their policy. If you choose to eat a certain, you choose to eat meat, you're supporting the meat industry. Each change does make a difference. And although it might not feel that way, like they're absolutely millions of people who are starting to make those changes. And when we get to that, that sort of millions and then billions level, we really start to tip the dial. So I'm excited by that. And I just think.

Anya Smith (29:07.087)
Yeah.

Dan (29:22.478)
If someone's thinking of what can I do, it's like just take the one easiest step and just try it on and see how that fits. It's a bit like going and trying on a jumper in a store.

Anya Smith (29:37.139)
Is a jumper in the UK, is that like the outfit that has like an overall or what is the jumper in?

Dan (29:44.897)
Just a sweater, a jumper, right?

Anya Smith (29:45.394)
Sweater, okay, okay. Okay, okay, sweater, good to know. Okay, one thing though I wonder about is how do you build confidence? And to you again, maybe it's again the question of thinking big, but I think confidence can be something challenging to even have sometimes when you're like, hey, who am I to try to make something happen? Like, and maybe people go out and they don't have the community who thinks this is possible. Like, hey, I wanna change the world. I have this sustainability passion. People are like, ah.

That's crazy. How have you cultivated your confidence and do you have any tips for people who maybe aren't feeling as confident yet that they could do something more but want to get there?

Dan (30:25.982)
Yeah, so I do. So I think confidence is a mix of experience, resilience and mindset. And

You know, we gain confidence by doing things that are outside of our comfort zone, which is experience. And we do things outside of our comfort zone and we remain there because we have resilience to remain there. I'm trying to put it in non theoretical terms. It's a bit like working out, right? It feels like horrible before you sort of start lifting weights. It's like, Oh, I don't want to do it. Then you lift the weights and maybe it feels shit during, during the session. And after.

Hopefully at some point you feel a bit better and then you keep doing it, right? And that's that experience and resilience. You keep going back and you keep lifting weights and at some point, you know, you start to build those muscles. It's the same thing with confidence. And then I think there's this piece about mindset, which my wife and I talk about a lot. And it's a roller coaster, right? It's fun. There are, you know, I have, I have days when I don't feel confident and I feel down and days where I feel great and it's okay. Both of those days are absolutely fine.

And what I'm noticing is actually I can even frame it. So it's like, it's not just a day, it's half a day and it's not just half a day, it's a moment, right? So you can start to sort of minute, it's not just, I have a bad day because something happened now, it's gonna, the rest of the day is bad. So you can start to sort of put those blockers in place. Actually, no, it's just a moment, it's okay. So that's that kind of, just that acceptance. And then I do a couple of things. One is, you know, I meet,

I meet a coach roughly every two weeks. We basically just meditate together, but it's a chance to just think what's going on in my mind. And I can sort of talk it out if I feel like talking it out. But it's that real kind of grounding session helps to really clear my head. And also just accepting, I learned this from Stephen Covey, Seven Habits, which is there's this kind of circle of influence, circle of concern.

Dan (32:35.758)
there are lots of things, circle of concern that I just haven't, I can't impact, right? Like I can't change the route that AI is going down or the state of our planet at a planetary level. But I have some influence about how I choose to use AI and how I choose to, you know, show up when it comes to the climate crisis. So the more we expand that circle of influence, I think the more confidence we build, the more confidence we build and experience we get, the more confidence we get. So it's that kind of self-fulfilling

Peace. And then mindset bit, for me it's, we can actually choose how we enter situations. That is quite groundbreaking for me and what my coach, what my experiential coach helped me realize is, you know, we can choose to feel, it's a choice, we can choose to feel bad about a situation or nervous about it. And those nerves are there, that's fine, that's a natural part of life.

but also we can choose to say, okay, I'm gonna work with these nerves and see where it takes me. So it is a choice. And that comes down to that mindset piece. Yeah, I'm kind of learning each day.

Anya Smith (33:46.65)
Yeah.

I think it was the book, The Subtle Art of Not Giving Enough A Fuck that I read and it talks about, and you have to take responsibility for your reaction to things, right? And it can be challenging at first to have that reality because if you put blame on people, it feels that, oh, you know, they are doing this to me, da-da-da-da-da, it may feel easier. But when you realize that actually you have the power to choose how you react and not to say that all the emotions you have are something that you can always control, right? We can honor those.

But when you realize that your reaction is something you can still on large control, even if it's honoring those emotions, working through them, choosing how you want to move on to them, that is also very powerful. It's not easy to your point, but it's powerful to say, hey, yes, I may be not showing up the way I want and this is an uncomfortable feeling. What now? Because I can make that choice. Even if somebody else is not showing up the way I want to, I have the choice to respond, to not respond, to walk away, to whatever that is.

I think that is very powerful. And on the point of confidence, again, this is a very new journey to me, as you know. And what I found is that having the doubt and acting through it, having one possible, like, well, what's next? How I'm improving keeps the doubt at bay. Because when you're acting and trying to get better, you have just like, I'm going to just research three other amazing podcasts and see how they're doing and emulate what they're doing to get a little bit. That gives me confidence.

because I'm not trying to climb a mountain all the way up immediately, but I'm just finding that one next step. And even if I feel doubt, I work through it to just make that one tangible next leap forward.

Dan (35:31.914)
Yeah, it's a really, it's a really great way to put it. I think that kind of next step makes a big difference. One of, one of my sort of mentors says, you know, lots of, lots of founders, entrepreneurs, try and sort of reach the stars straight away, but you can only do that by building each stair, right? And it's like, just focus on building the next stair as best as it can be built.

Anya Smith (35:34.298)
in.

Anya Smith (35:51.928)
Mm-hmm.

Dan (36:00.414)
And it just really helped me when you mention next step, it's that kind of thing. It's like, you don't know ultimately where that staircase is going to lead, but as long as you focus on each stair, you'll get somewhere really interesting. And yeah, that's stayed with me. So I really hear you on that next step piece.

Anya Smith (36:21.278)
And I'm curious, as you brought it up, do you think there's something unique that you've observed about entrepreneurs? And can people who, you know, can anybody become an entrepreneur? Or is it something that you think is just like unique to a mindset or something that somebody has to find within themselves?

Dan (36:39.538)
My short answer is anybody can become an entrepreneur because I am proof of that. I do think there's a kind of small, very small minority of exceptional entrepreneurs, you know, Steve Jobs, that kind of category, who perhaps it is, perhaps is something from within them. But for the rest of us, for us sort of humans, I think it's possible.

Yeah, I am living proof of that. I was not an entrepreneurial child or teenager. I, my first jobs were, you know, classic in, in business, small cog in a, in a big machine and through my twenties started to wake up to this, this sort of fun game of entrepreneurship and just, you know, I think the...

A big book for me that's really defined is the seven habits of highly affected people, which really helped me understand what kind of life do I actually want to be leading. And I wasn't enjoying sort of that nine to five office life, small cog type of life. So I just started thinking, what else could there be? And so, you know, I'm absolutely living proof that you're not born into entrepreneurship. It's just this wonderful...

Anya Smith (37:51.269)
Mm-hmm.

Dan (38:03.106)
thing that we get to do, which ultimately about solving problems and listening to people and seeing if we can add value to their lives.

Anya Smith (38:12.346)
And Dan, what were some of the biggest learnings? So again, a lot of times on social media, we look at the positives, like, oh, I've done something really good and now I have this company and everything seems great. But we often have times hide, you know, for whatever reason, like I do too, like the things that don't feel as glamorous. Like yesterday I made our first $9 as the podcast, which I was really excited about, you know, more than zero. And I was like, well, should I share that with anybody? And now I am because...

That's the reality. Like we choose to not share the little things because it seems insignificant. We're like, oh, well, that's nothing. But I think it's worth sharing the struggles and also the little things along the way because those matter too. So what were maybe some learnings, challenges, maybe little victories that kept you going as you started this entrepreneurial journey?

Dan (38:59.566)
Well, firstly, congratulations. That's an amazing milestone to hit, getting money into the podcast. Awesome. My biggest lessons have come through the things that have failed. And I think we have this tendency to fear failure because it is a little bit taboo, partly because of what we see on social media. We only see the sort of good life.

But we get so many lessons when we actually just try and whether it fails or not, we're really experiencing that thing and for me that was good company. We launched the social business, connected volunteers with the elderly. It didn't work out and my big lessons there were it has to be, the thing I do has to be connected to a really big cause that I'm genuinely passionate about. It wasn't loneliness, it is sort of addressing the climate crisis.

We defined our product in a meeting room and then we went out and tried to prove that it was going to work to customers. And we did that for about 18 months. Uh, for me, it's the wrong way around. Cause you know, it's like, have a hypothesis test it as quickly as possible in front of real customers. I'm in a listen to their reactions and then iterate on it. Right. So much more agile as a result, but without those two lessons, but I wouldn't be where I am now. And you know, after.

good company failed, I actually, I cried on my kitchen floor, my wife had to give me a big hug and pick me up and say everything's fine. And it's true, like when something fails ultimately, certainly in my industry, all it is a bruised ego, right? It's not, I'm not a doctor, nobody's dying as a result. And that's kind of freeing, right? The ego should be bruised, that's a good thing. I provided, you know, the things we're doing are good for the people we serve, so.

That for me gave me a lot of confidence. So those are the kind of really big lessons. And then I think the smaller wins along the way, yeah, I think it's just celebrating those wins and having people to celebrate them with. It can be quite a lonely trail without that, but having a great community to really celebrate. As you say, any win, any move forward in that business should be celebrated. It's amazing that it happens because it's not.

Dan (41:23.902)
It's all built on our own efforts, right?

Anya Smith (41:29.326)
Absolutely, absolutely. And one thing that I also see you grow is your social media presence. Like I saw on LinkedIn, like 11,000 getting right over there on LinkedIn, which is amazing. Congratulations. I'm curious, what impact or what role has social media had in you growing your business? And also, as you're growing on top of your growth, how are you thinking about growth in terms of growing your team or for your company? No, slightly too. Thanks.

Dan (41:55.55)
Yeah, so there's quite a lot in this question. So if I ramble, interrupt, and if I don't answer growing the team one, please do ask it again. So on LinkedIn, LinkedIn's been amazing for Mother Tree. I was not a fan of social media before I started Mother Tree. I actually deleted Facebook for many years. But LinkedIn has been really amazing.

Yeah, I had, you know, 500 followers or thereabouts about a year ago. Uh, I've put a lot of time and, uh, sort of focus on, on LinkedIn. And it's just the best way to find a vibrant community. I met Roman through that. He introduced me to you as an example. Uh, you know, and the more it's kind of like compound, right? The more you do it, the bigger it gets, the more offers I'm able to get. You know, for podcasts, for events, just to get the message out there about mother tree.

And also that's our main route to finding clients. It's where I talk about mother tree the most and it's free advertising. I write the, come up with the ideas and we get the content going and it's just this amazing platform for growing a business. The other thing I love about LinkedIn is, to put genuine content out there, not using AI and we don't use things like chat TBT, to put genuine content out there, you have to really research it.

So it's just, it's a great way to learn is, is that, oh, okay, well, if I'm gonna put this out into the world and I really need to know what I'm saying. And I've got that wrong at times. When I put something out there that I haven't really known, I've been rightly questioned on it. And that's a good thing. That's another bruised ego thing. And that makes us better in the long run. So I love LinkedIn for that. How have I grown it? So, you know, post every single day, certainly every single weekday, interacts with lots of people.

are the main two ways. And just knowing when to post is a good thing. So in England, that's kind of nine to 11, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Fridays, just looking at the data to really understand, okay, these are the things that work. And then the most magnificent thing about LinkedIn is the posts that have done the best for me are the ones that were genuinely just supported, bigged up someone without any other, I didn't even know them before, I just thought what they're doing is so amazing. So,

Dan (44:24.374)
We did a post about Laura Clark, who's the CEO of Client Earth, who take governments to court about their failure to address the climate crisis. Amazing work. Did this post and it went kind of viral, had lots of engagement. I love that. Obviously, a small reason I do it is to get followers, of course, but I want to build that base.

But more than that, it's like, it's being able to celebrate people doing these amazing things. So I love LinkedIn for that, the fact that content really flies is amazing. So you can just get the word out about brilliant people. So that's LinkedIn. And then the team, so we're a team of three, actually we're a team of four. We had someone join today, very, very exciting. So we're now a team of four. How do we grow that? So.

I'm pretty ruthless on the data. Like we look at the finances every month. My aim is to make this business profitable before we really start, uh, start expanding. So, you know, it's, we really question every single employment decision from it, from a financial perspective, but crucially then it's about the people. You know, I want to work with people that I, that I love working with who we spend, you know, most of our day work, certainly working days with. So we.

You know, we spend a lot of time figuring out what, what is that for that specific role? And we're remote. So I'm based in Bratislava. My co-founder is in London, one of our teams in Costa Rica. So we're kind of all over the world and it just means getting locked. It's like, you have to invest quite a lot of time to get to those people. But then, and then it's a, and then it's kind of, you know, wonderful journey from there. And the other thing we do is it sounds a little bit brutal, but kind of

And, you know, we do a lot of sort of trial, not a lot. We've done a couple of trial periods where we'll do a sort of three month stint. Also for the person to see if they really want to work with us, right, it goes both ways. Actually all the trial periods we've done, the person has stayed on, which has been magical. But I just think that's a quite a nice low risk way for both parties to really figure out, you know, we've both said the right things at the start, but does that really translate to...

Dan (46:42.942)
is it the right thing when we start working together? It's a bit like dating, isn't it? Talk a good game at the start, but...

Anya Smith (46:50.775)
Can we date for three months? And then if it doesn't work, we just say bye. Ha ha.

Dan (46:54.718)
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Anya Smith (47:02.214)
So we've done this amazing work. We're growing the team. We're growing social media. What is next for Money Tree? And again, how is it expanding maybe globally? So if somebody's listening to other parts of the world outside of the UK, can they still use it?

Dan (47:16.926)
Yes, so we do work globally. We've reviewed banks all over the world, America, Canada, Denmark, Germany. So there we talk a lot about the UK and that's where we started. And the majority of our clients are UK. We are sort of operating globally. So yeah, if you're interested in that kind of thing, do you get in touch? What's next for MotherTree? So we're very, very focused on finance. We wanna continue on that side.

we can go very deep in terms of banks, pensions, investments, insurance, those kind of things. So for me, it's making sure that we continue to get the appropriate level of data on those things to give our clients real transparency. And then, yeah, I think we're very UK focused at the moment, so I think it's just building out that more of a global presence as probably the next two steps.

Anya Smith (48:12.898)
I'm so excited for this. I'm so excited for you and I'm so excited that there's a resource like this helping others. And I love the inspiration from Theo about the change we have for our families, the people around us, people that really matter. And honestly, I'm relieved in a way that there is a way that seems a little bit easier than just day to day eating and all the things like your finances, things you can do once and then it's serving you, right? You can kind of have a peace of mind and that has a huge impact versus

Some things that we try to do maybe that are more stressful day to day that maybe are unfortunately not having as big impact. So I love that there's this resource. Is there anything that I missed that you want to add before we wrap up?

Dan (48:52.05)
I don't think so. This has been a really fun, a very, very fun podcast. Anya, thank you so much for having me on.

Anya Smith (49:00.678)
Well, you're so insightful. I love your clear passion. It's really intriguing to me to see the difference where you bring your passion into your work and what a difference that can make. And it's okay saying that, hey, I'm still learning and finding that passion, but knowing the difference is really powerful. And here at Right Off Track, we wrap up with three rapid fire questions. So whenever you're ready, let me know and we'll dive into those.

Dan (49:22.686)
Oh, you mentioned you wanted to do an announcement about... Errr...

Anya Smith (49:26.89)
Yes, yes, I'm going to go after the rapid fire. Yeah, I kind of went over. I'm just being a rebel right here.

Dan (49:33.302)
Fine, all good. I'm ready for those questions, yeah.

Anya Smith (49:37.348)
Perfect, perfect. So what habit that makes you more productive?

Dan (49:44.578)
I do Wim Hof breathing technique every morning. So it's about getting oxygen into the blood, into the brain, takes about 10 to 15 minutes every morning. That's my favorite habit at the moment. Settles the mind and gets the body ready for the day.

Anya Smith (49:58.147)
Ooh, I love that.

Much better than me starting with the phone, which I try to avoid, but that sounds a lot more empowering. Okay, what is the most used app on your phone?

Dan (50:13.902)
Oh, that's a great question. Um, I don't know. I think if I had to pick right now, it's really boring, but it's probably, it's probably, uh, it's probably my email or WhatsApp. Uh, I had, yeah, that's a great question. Yeah.

Anya Smith (50:19.218)
I'm sorry.

Anya Smith (50:27.11)
Ha ha!

Anya Smith (50:30.63)
That means you're in contact. That means you're in touch with people, right? You're working, you're connecting. That's beautiful. Okay, in the positive context, going off track is.

Dan (50:43.339)
uh following your curiosity

Anya Smith (50:50.086)
Okay, Dan, this was delightful. And to your point, I wanted to create a quick shout out. What I'm doing with the podcast is also trying to serve a purpose. And right now I'm trying to support, well, I am excited to support the amazing nonprofit Ready to Empower, which empowers women worldwide. And they've been in business 10 years. It's their anniversary and they are raising $50,000 this year, all of which goes to operational costs.

If you feel inspired to make a little difference in the world, I'd be so grateful if you check out the description of this podcast to donate whatever amount seems comfortable to you to make an impact there. So thank you so much. And then thank you so much for inspiring us again about committing to life of purpose, finding the confidence to do something that can change the world, and also sharing your learnings along the way that I think anybody can relate to and hopefully find inspiration from.

Dan (51:38.569)
Thank you so much for having me.

Anya Smith (51:41.53)
Thank you, Dan. And everybody follow Dan on LinkedIn. I'll have his description below. And again, check out the carbon calculator wherever you are in the world and see how you're doing. And then if you need help, check out Money Tree and see how they can help you align your values. And as always, thank you so much for coming right off track with us. We look forward to having you join us on our next adventure. Until then, take care. And out.