How to Break FREE from Corporate NORMS and Find Your AWESOME Self - Michelle Hartley is RightOffTrack | Anya Smith

but what it was that doing internally to you
and no to kind of some of your personal style elements
just moved so far away from my true self
that what happened in this space was just this
this whole horrible burnout depression
anxiety situation
we have this social Avatar
so this you know
this persona that we put on
and we have our real authentic self
and obviously the
the goal to being authentic is you get those two things
as close as you possibly can together
respecting your own boundaries of course
but the places you come together so that you've got
you know less space for things like you know
anxiety stress
all that good stuff to then creep in
and what I talked about in this
in this talk was that I'd
I'd created so much of space between you know
the real me and then this social Avatar that it just
it just felt so alien
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right off track
enjoy this episode
going off track is taking a chance on yourself
following your polls of curiosity
it's making your own decisions
the most wonderful adventure
hey friends
for inspiring episode where we explore
how bring your full self to work can spark wheel change
we're diving into the world of HR
with a guest who's a living example of this philosophy
she's turned a conventional on its head
using authenticity to empower others
and address pressing workplace issues like this
with over 20 years under her belt
she's a beacon for those striving to make real
impact in the professional lives
let's warmly welcome Michelle Hartley
hey thank you for having me
I thought that introduction was a whopper
thank you so much
ha ha ha ha ha ha
I'm so excited
you know it's
it's early on my time
it's about 5
6 am over here in Pacific
and where in the world are you
just so our guests can know
yeah so I'm in the UK
I'm in the south west of the UK
um so for me
it's almost two PM
which is why uh
I've had plenty of time to get ready
and you look fabulous
more fabulous than me
even though it's between like 5 and 6:00am for you
so impressive you look
the reason I want to bring it up is that I knew this
this episode would be so energizing
that I don't even need coffee
so it's really good for
starting my day exactly this way
so thank you for joining me
and quick shout out to Harrison Cantel
who introduced us
um he's also a wonderful guest and a
wiz at video production
go check out his episode
Michelle we talked about you
what I was really fascinated when I met you is like
how much energy and passion you have in this
seemingly conservative field of HR
so can you share with me a little bit like
how did you find your ability to be truly yourself
in this seemingly conservative field
yeah it's a really strange space
HR isn't it
and I think so
I've been around in HR
as you said
in my beautiful instruction
for 20+ years
um and so when I was in HR in house
I felt like I always was an HR person with a bit of
personality
you know I'd always have a sense of humour
I'd always be able to join in with the stupid
jokes and stuff like that
um but I really only found my proper
authentic self
when I rather started to run my business
so now I'll be 3 years old in a few weeks time
um and thank you so much
uh and so that's when it really started
so I had a period of um
a burnout where I was just trying to
be something that I wasn't
I kept trying to force myself into this
like corporate mode
trying to be like one of the boys
and it just didn't land for me
and I think it took its toll
you know I've been there for a long time
and it took its toll on me
um and it resulted in a horrible period of burnout
but actually
what that made me realise was
if I can just be more me
I will have more energy
and I'll probably enjoy my life a bit more
so that's where it all kind of started
so it almost became like a little bit of a spark
and then it kind of just
exploded from there
um and I think when we spoke before
I was saying about uh
it it randomly started with nail polish done
so it just sounds like the strangest thing
but I was in this space where I'd like
forced myself into
like this super grey navy beige
just boring HR mold
and whenever anybody used to notice
anything about my parents
through that
lipstick jewelry
nail polish
I'd never wear it again
when I put it away
I'd never wear it again
because I just didn't want to be noticed
I didn't think that was the right thing
um and so after my period of burnout
I was like I'm
just gonna start
like little ways of trying to engage myself
you know get back to the real me
and I was genuinely petrified
I've got to this space
where I was just so scared of being me
so I started with nail polish
and I went to my nail lady
and I was like
we need to do something like
I need to do something different
it's got to be something cool um
but I'm petrified
and so we ended up agreeing on
I'm not even kidding you
like a French manicure
with like the tiniest bit of sparkle on the top
ha ha ha that's where it started
and then I realized that no one had died
like nobody hated me
I still have my professional status
but now I had slightly sparkly nails
and so it worked really well
and then I just kept building on that experiment
then week on week on week
and suddenly
became much more me so yeah
it's been really interesting to
to live through it in the last couple of years
so before before I continue
show us your nails
ha ha ha ha ha ha
say right now
that bright red is like a gold
sparkle on the ring finger
ha ha ha gorgeous
gorgeous gorgeous
very holiday us
cause we're recording this
like right in the middle of December so yes
um but on a serious note
why do you think we get to a place where we need
to constantly
where we feel this need to not be ourselves
in the corporate setting
yeah it's it's
so hard being in that corporate space
isn't it I mean
I remember I got told by a mentor
oh probably 15 years ago now
who said to me like
you need to dress
like your um
your seniors dress
you need to dress
in a way that
really reflect
the people that you want to be your peers
so if they're more senior than you
you want to be part of that group
you need to dress like them
and then first
I thought hmm
I'm not sure about that
that doesn't work for me
and then as I
as I started to get more senior in my career
that's what was happening
so it's almost
like you know
I used to love wearing
like waistcoats and bright shoes
and then of course
I got to the point where I was in a senior room
I was like oh
none of these men are wearing waistcoats and
bright shoes
so maybe I shouldn't
and it just
it seemed to
I think that the messaging
that I got around
being a woman in a senior
position was
um to to not stand out
to you know
not detract from your
credibility
and professionalism
and just you know
be beige like everybody else
and it really stuck with me and it
it just seems
really affect me for such a long time
where is now
I I get work
and I'm asked to deliver work at a very
senior level
in a very professional
way but with
with my kind of
style energy
joy colour all
all kind of involved
it's a massive
a massive ship for me
absolutely and
I'm curious
so if we talk about the external things
we feel well
what's the difference
you know sure
maybe you don't stand out
but what it was that doing
internally to you
by saying no to standing out
and no to kind of
some of your personal
style elements
yeah it was
I think to be honest
that's where
the whole burnout
situation ended up for me
was I just moved
so far away from my true self
that what happened in this space
was just this
this whole horrible
burnout depression
anxiety situation
and I was reading a piece
um recently
I talked about
actually a couple of months ago
it's all closed in
but um about
how we have this social Avatar
so this you know
this persona that we put on
and we have our real
authentic self
and obviously the
the goal to being
authentic is
you get those two things
as close as you possibly
can together
respecting your own boundaries of course
but the places
you come together
so that you've got
you know less space for things like you know
anxiety stress
all that good stuff
to then creep in
and what I talked about
in this in this talk
was that I'd
I'd created
so much of space between you know
the real me
and then this social
Avatar that it just
it just felt so alien
and the amount of energy
that I was using to
to keep the space
just was ridiculous
and I think that's where
you know that burnout
space kicked in for me
because I was just so far away from my normal self
and I would come back
you know from a day at work
and just be absolutely
exhausted like
we were laughing
the other day
me and my husband
but he I would come home
and he'd ask me a question like
what do you want for dinner
and I'd lose my
I'd lose it
but don't ask me any more questions
like I just had nothing left
in the tank
so it's just the strangest thing but yeah
I think I was just basically
extending all of my energy in
essentially
maintaining
to yourselves
and it just isn't you know
isn't healthy
we can all do it for a period of time
right you know
you go to a
a party with friends
and you kinda
put on the face
and you're okay
but actually
doing that for
12 hours a day
every day of the week is just uh
it's unsustainable
and I think that's why I got to with it
I can continually yes
we can laugh at it now
but I'm sure
in the moment
people going through
it's definitely
feels a lot more serious
and difficult
it reminded me
what's funny
when I started my career
I was actually
my first job
out of college
was working for Alaska Airlines
which is a local
Seattle airline
it's within the US
I don't know if it's known um
across the world
in any case
that was the place where
starting when
I had to dress in the most formal
and it was funny
right because of that
point you know
I'm like here
out of college
I had my piercings
like my nose piercings
and my man just like
you have to take all of this out
right you know
like all of the stuff
so I was like okay sure
you know put it out
it was funny
is that after that
all my jobs work
higher tech
higher paying
and less formal
like here like
all my formal
clothes like
ways in my closet
that I never reach out to
and just like
something random
really happens
but as I get to make more money
I got to dress a lot less
conservatively
but yes the issue is still there
so if you're in tech
and your place
like well okay
I don't have to dress formally
this may not relate to me
but I found that still
I was trying to be more
like my manager
I was trying to yeah
like oh well
if something's not happening for
me you know
professionally
maybe I'm not getting
something then
something is wrong with me
that I need
to be less energetic
I need to be
quote quote
more professional
I need to tone myself
down and okay
what if people
that are in
leadership roles
what if they look like
so even if it's not a clothing element
it's still that vibration
where we feel like hey
we need to be more
like somebody else
to be X y Z
in an environment
and I definitely found that
was messing
with myself
and to your point
when you get outside of these
artificial I know
um settings
you know uh
like corporate
you by like
the limits are
they weren't there
they were kind of artificial
you know like
you were putting those into your head
nobody was telling
all you have to change um
so I found that really powerful
and it does mess up your head
even if it's not close wise
the feeling
that you can't be
yourself does
best of your head
so um so now
you were talking about hey
you started with nail polish
what happened then
like what was
your progression
from starting to
nail polish
to then saying
hey I'm gonna
truly find myself
yeah it was um
it was really interesting
so the nail polish
progressed and progressed
and progressed
and I still realised
that no one died
and everything was okay
and and then
interestingly
uh lockdown hit
so we had this
you know this
covid situation
where everybody was
locked in their homes
and what happened was
I was kind of
forced to not
wear my corporate
tailored seats
and my corporate outfits
because I was like why
why am I wearing
seats when I'm
sat in my kitchen
so then it became right
I just need to
find things
that bring me joy now
because this is
a horrible time
it was genuinely
the most stressful
time of my entire career
and and those
that are listening
that are HR people
I can literally
feel them nodding along
already ha ha ha
it was the most stressful
awful time um
until I just
found myself wanting
wanting joy
and what happened was
I ended up finding
loads of clothes
that just brought me joy
and then weirdly
so I went from my
nail polish to socks
and remember
I think it's the
same in the US
actually but in
lockdown in the UK
we all just
went mad for things
that could come
by the post
because after
you couldn't
leave your house
you couldn't
get to the shops
until I found this sock
website that did
these really cute
little socks
um but in all
like animal
print colours
that bright
bright colours
and I spent
probably about £45 on
rainbow socks
and I remember thinking
I have to hide them
from my husband
cause he'll get mad
if he's realised
I spent this much money
on socks but
then it started
then I was like oh
I love these
they bring me joy
when I put them on
um then I found uh
a lovely company
which doesn't have
it doesn't exist anymore
but a lovely
company that
did rainbow
coloured um
like sweaters
and so I had
one of those
and then I got
to the space
where I was
like actually I
I'm in my own house
I don't need to
wear makeup
like I don't
need to do any
of this stuff
and so I just ended up
you know but
at the beginning
of lockdown
I was just like
super stressed
super tailored
slightly nail polishy
HR person and
very senior role
by the end of lockdown
I was in rainbow
colored tracksuits
with rainbow
animal print socks
and my hair
scrapped up
in a mum bun
with no makeup on
but what my
realization was
if none of that changed
my level of
professionalism
none of that changed
my credibility
in business
none of that changed
how I did my job
actually what
it meant was
I had more energy
to gift to my family
when I'd finish
this horrible
stressful day
so it was a weird
lockdown Covid
based epiphany
that then got me
thinking about
I don't know
if I want another
corporate job now
maybe I wanna
do something for myself
so that's where it kind of
all started
so yeah nail
polish to socks
to sweaters
say I love it
all took over
and for all
of us listening
I'm curious
you know what
are you denying yourself
and if you're
listening to this
Nick oh well
that sounds fun
what could you
be doing like
what is one
little step
like whether
it's nail polish right
or maybe it's
like get a sock
or just whatever
brings you joy
maybe it's just
time off for
yourself right
like what are you
denying yourself
that seems like
oh it's a waste of money
but they feel
like your soul
is actually
craving that
and if you give yourself
more and more space
like how could
that actually
give you love
more energy
and vibrance
that ultimately
would give you
the same energy
for whatever you do
professionally
or personally
yeah absolutely
and it's one
of the questions
I always posed people
when I do these um
speaking gigs
one of the questions
I always posed people is
what's your 1%
experiment so
what's your
equivalent of
like sparkly
top coat nail
polish and say
what's your 1%
because actually
what happens is
you get your 1%
and you build another 1%
then another 1%
then another 1%
then all of a sudden
you'll be sat there
with a mum bun
and rainbow
sutter like
it will happen
ha ha ha ha ha
yeah you know
if it makes me
think about
is that a lot of times
we worry so much
what other people
think right
we cause we
I know personally
I was struggling
and I really
became cognizant that
lately is like
the external
validation was
so important to me
and so much
of my drive
was based on like
the stress of
having to do
more and more
and more so
that I feel
worthy and I
realize that
all the way to
combat that
is really to focus
on internal
internal satisfaction
of yourself
so I think this
like 1% experiment
is this you
finding your own
valuation you
finding what
brings you joy
and that really
is the most
solid foundation
for whatever you do
because if you
really enjoy
how you feel
what you bring
to yourself
then you don't
have to worry about
everything else
extra like yes
sure you know
if you're working
especially for
other people
there are still those
expectations
but you know
that foundation
is stronger than you
and so you're not
swing every time
something doesn't go
according to
plan something
external doesn't
like because
the internally
you feel good
about yourself
and that is
so powerful
um so and let me know
if you wanna
add anything
about that 1%
experiment and how
it relates to that
uh or we can
move forward
yeah yeah no
I'm thinking
you're totally
right I guess
it's just um
like confirming
what you just
said about uh
one of the phrases that
I use I'd say
I run a program
which we've
we've touched on
but um one of
the phrases
that I use is
birds don't
worry about
what branch
they land on
because they
got trust in
their wings
and I just it
is so right
isn't it and
we don't do that
at work do we
and it really
sticks with me
that one and
and fun enough
I bought my mum
um a little
bracelet with
a bird on it
for that very reason
because I was like
birds don't
worry about
what branches
they land on
because they know
they can use
their wings
like and it's
just the best
phrase so yeah
I completely
agree with you
oh I'm sure
I love it you
should be looking
marketing HR
slash marketing
brand expert
oh my god I say that
all the time
ha ha ha ha
ha ha ha ha
ha OK so now
you're like
hey in this
reflective period
you bring yourself to light
through these 1%
experiments
and finding hoey
this brings me joy
how do you then
decide he's like
maybe Corpus
what do you do then
because a lot
of people like
hey this isn't
bringing me joy
and that's it
haha yeah haha
that's how far
it goes what
took you to
the next level
yeah I am so weirdly
I was thinking
I need to do
something different
and I was getting a load of
interviews for more
corporate roles
so you know
the activity
was better um
but each interview
I was doing
I was like oh
this this just doesn't
bring me joy
like it doesn't
float my boat
it's not making me
feel excited
I just sit there
and be in these
interviews I
thought yeah
I could do that
I could I could
but it doesn't
it doesn't spark me
like it's just
another set
of the same
tools just in
a different
environment
so I kind of
was thinking
maybe I'll take
the summer off
maybe I'll just have
a bit of a break
and then I ended up
working with
another consultant
just under her
a brand and
her umbrella
for about a year
just happened
around and what
happened was
cause she was a general
HR consultant
I had a really great
opportunity then
to experiment
on the kinds
of stuff that
I really liked
and didn't like
and it was weird
because I'd spent
you know 20 years
crafting this
generalist HR
career and what
came out of
this you know
experimental time
was I didn't
really like
the HR stuff
like I didn't
really like
like the grievances
and the hiring and firing
and all the
you know all the
adminning letters
and writing
policies and stuff
but what I did love
was you know
creating engaging
content creating
um training
programs that
let people up
I loved delivering
training and
I love that
I could be almost
a bit of a disruptor
in this training
space where
we all got used to this
awful covid
online learning
that was just
dead faces people
talking into
screens not
very exciting
and so of course
then once I started
applying like
the Michelle
Magic sprinkles
and it became a
lot more fun
and I really
enjoyed it so
yeah that's
that's kind
of how it I
guess how it
played three
but I think
it was probably a solid
year of just
trying things out
and I think
for the first time
in my entire career
I allowed myself
to fill my way
through something
whereas when I was
in corporate
it was always
the next car
the next role
the next bonus
the next promotion
the next salary increase
like and so
I was always
doing this like
striving thing
where I was just
the next thing
so I'd always
forget what
achieved head
for the next goal
and actually
in self employed
life it was
a completely
different experience
because I was like
I'm just gonna see
I'm just gonna
see what happens
like in the
whole thing
I guess to come
back to the
experiment point
maybe the whole thing was
part of that
you know my
my finale to my 1%
experiment was
maybe I'll just see
what happens
and that that
genuinely is
what happened
I just followed
the joy and
worked out what
I love to do
and then it
it's just come
together I mean
it sounds awful
to say it like
that doesn't it
cause there's a
lot of hard
work ha ha case
into what I do
but I think
following the joy
can be really powerful
so allowing
yourself to
follow the joy
can just be huge
I I think that's
so powerful
I think we underestimate
like how much
intuition and
our gut feelings
have to do with things
you know we
live so much
in our heads
and forget to also
think the cake
you know ahead
it thinks a
certain way
but a lot of
them is fear
motivated it
doesn't always
have a clear
alignment with
our best like
it's just like
do do do but
who are we really
how do we feel
do you have any
suggestions
for other people
who like that
sounds nice
but how do I get
that sense of
even confidence
to be able to
trust in myself
to be able to trust
the joy yeah
it's a really
good question
I think I guess
some of it is
about I guess
giving yourself
permission to
feel your way
through it and
giving yourself
permission to get it
wrong sometimes
but I think
the more that
I've allowed
myself to do that
the stronger
the connection
to my gut has been
which sounds
a bit strange
but it works
because you know
I'll make some
of those decisions
and I'll make
them in a way
that feels safe for me
so I just oh
this is just
1% you know
this is just
1% a small a
small thing
about a speaking
gig or a small
thing about a
podcast guest
or you know
something is
a small effort
and then you realize
oh that that
felt quite good
and I enjoyed that oh
I'll do some
more of that
you know it's
just that kind
of following
following through
that joy so
I guess it's
trusting that
you know the right
decisions to
make and then
enabling yourself
to make them
in small ways
so that you can
test it out
I think that's
the biggest thing
so test them out
test out your
intuition however
wherever you
can you know
if you always
wanted to go
self employed
have a little
think about
what that could look like
if you wanna
start your own
business what
would you sell
how would you sell
it who would
you sell it to
just doing that
thinking will
start your gut
tuning into
the things that
you love so
I think it's
just paying
attention isn't it
paying attention
noticing it
following joy
when it appears
it might be
something random
as well like
mine is random
creating things in Canva
I was like oh
quite like this
this is good
beautiful I
like I like
the analogy also
like that it's
it's slowing down
and it's taking
the example
like we have this
you know like
storm of brain
energy where
it's a constant
like how could
you possibly
navigate a ship
through that
yeah you're
you're cause
there's a storm is like
always do do
do next thing
next thing next thing
have to do this
should do this
and what you're doing
like when you
try to trust
your gut is
you say like
hey I'm gonna
create space
for the tide
in the sea to
kinda calm down
when possible
even if it's like
five minutes of the day
I'm just gonna
try to say I
this is the
moment where
I'm not doing shit
cause Woods
I'm just gonna
slow down and
listen right
and so just
imagine how much
smoother your
sale could go
if you just
give yourself
a moment to
let the seat
like die down
and then navigate
wherever you
need to go and
so you know
you still like
it's not your
you know your
brain's dead
but you're still
thinking about
it but um if
it gives you
more comfort
to think about
it that way
it's just giving
that noise a
time to settle
so you can listen to
what's really
important and
we love you to
mention he's like
you were like
NHR for so long
and it gave you this
he's like what
do I really
enjoy about
this yeah yeah
absolutely yeah
and one of the
things you just
reminded me
actually one of
the things I did
um literally
within the first week
of starting
our business
was I wrote a
list of all
the things I
could do which
ranged from
you know HR
consultancy
strategy firing
people hiring
people pensions
training you know
literally a
massive massive
list and then
I crossed off
all the stuff
that I didn't
really enjoy
and interestingly
what was left
was all of the training
development
coaching support stuff
which is now
where I live
my life right
but the time
I wrote the list
and ignored
it because I
wasn't connected
properly to
like my gut
and following the
joy because
work had to be
toil and it
had to be pain
and I had to
keep doing it
um but I went
back to that
list and it
it was like
I don't know
9 months later
or something
went back to
the list and
was like oh
my word my brain
knew where I
needed to go
and I just didn't
listen ha ha
ha ha yeah isn't
that beautiful
a beautiful
even if it's
time it's a
beautiful process
so you had this experience
starting your entrepreneur journey
what advice would you give for a set of people
or maybe just starting or thinking about it
like now that you had this reflective piece
what advice would you have for your entrepreneurs
yeah and I I was a really um
resistant entrepreneur
so I did not want to go self employed ha ha
I did not want to start a business
I have no no weird desires
which now looking back 3 years later is crazy to me
but at the time yeah
I just didn't wanna do it um
and what was interesting was
I felt like the reason I didn't do it is
because I couldn't see anybody like me who was doing it
and so I just thought well
this isn't for me then
because there's nobody like me doing it
and isn't it fascinating
you know I've done training now on things like
um inclusion
diversity belonging
equity stuff
and part of that whole messaging is
representation matters
seeing people like me matters
and so it was really interesting to think about that
there wasn't anybody let me doing it
and of course
in my non entrepreneur ahead of the time
I said well
that means I can't do it
well of course
now I'm like
oh my word no one's doing it
you need to do that thing
ha ha ha ha
I would be um
so my advice to future
entrepreneurs would be to really think about
what you're
what you're bringing to the world
so what your
what your magical gift is
and if there's anybody doing it right now
go and like stalk them
like go and look them
find out what they're doing
how they're doing it
like maybe even ask them for a coffee
like go and see what they're doing
how they're doing it
because it's fascinating
and genuinely
I don't think
I would have done so well if I hadn't had such a great
you know connection of human beings around me
that have really supported me
and I think that's
that's really cool for
and starting out is remembering that
although you do have to do everything
as an entrepreneur
you don't ha ha ha
you can you can connect to people who will help you
there are so many people out there
who are just the loveliest humans
who just will chat to you about everything
like those kinds of things are so important
so I would say
make the time and space
to network and connect to the people
and then see who's out there like you
or who that you admire
that you can kind of go and
go and have a little stalk off
oh absolutely this
this interview is happening because of exactly this
right for one
this podcast is created by me
because I wanted people who felt all about
like lone wolves
like people like oh
I'm thinking about this crazy thing
nobody in my immediate surrounding has this
same vision
what am I doing
and this podcast
is full of exactly those kind of people
who are doing this
who are pursuing and sharing their story
so I want people to find well
myself included
ha ha ha to find this as like
this is normal
like other people are doing it
this is normal
and for better or worse
we do need that
we do need a sense like
this is possible
right where there are other people who think like me
to make you feel like okay yes
I'm not like
just completely crazy and doing some my own
or there are other people crazy just like me
and you know
what I found
which really surprised me again
this is still under year 1 for me
entrepreneur community is the most supportive
community I've known yes
yes and I don't mean that in any negative
comparison to other people
but I think because as an entrepreneur
you know the craziness it takes
to go into this
how lonely could be
how frustrating
how inner like
reflective this whole process is
the more and Grace you have for the people
and I don't wanna say like
that everybody responds
cause people are busy
for the most part
people are not replying to you
if you reach out because they're busy
like especially
if you're polite and what not
um but if people who do like
are just amazingly kind
and they wanna help you
and give you a little bit of time again
so do it respectively
have patience
maybe try again
if somebody does respond
but everybody who's connected with me now
like I I had this you know
inspiring network for me for the first time in life
because of me going out
sharing my wild
like vision for this
even though it wasn't fully baked
and he's like oh yeah
I can see that
because they're also
in this journey
doing something
a little crazy
so um can completely
relate to that advice
like build your community
find people that inspire you
reach out to them
and just having that
like one or two people
it doesn't have to be a ton
can be like
a difference as you're starting your journey
yeah I completely agree
I've got 3 or 4 friends who
all started their businesses
at the same time
and randomly
I don't even know how we all got connected
it was on LinkedIn
and we had this messaging group on LinkedIn
and now we're still friends
we're all still flourishing
our business is still going really well
and it just makes such a difference to have a
team of people around you
who can pick up the phone and go
what have I just done
like it's just
it's just brilliant yeah
it's just so good
because you need that
you need that
cause it's really lonely otherwise
so yeah definitely
find your people
absolutely I was funny
I was just watching on Instagram before this
like somebody saying like
an entrepreneurs holiday party
and it's just like one guy sitting by the bar
ha ha let me tell um
one thing we talked about you
and I love like the journey on
can you share with me now
you found yourself
you found your business
even though you're resisting to being uh
an entrepreneur
how have you taking this now like
and brought this energy into HR
like what is like this back process
where you went back to your field that was very
conservative and then you brought your full self there
what happened then
yeah I don't
you know what
I don't even know
it's the weirdest thing
so when I um
when I started my business
I had 14 followers on LinkedIn
and I just hit
well nearly hit 13,000 now
so in three years
I've gone from 14 to nearly 13,000
and yeah just
just ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha yeah
can I please be my friend
and that um
it's really weird
I think I think the biggest impact I had
with what I was doing was working with Harrison
friendly enough
so Harrison
he connected us
he was just the most wonderful human
um working with him to get my video confidence up
really made a massive impact because all of a sudden
all of these HR people who I've connected with
because I was sharing great stuff
you know sharing credible
good articles
interesting takes
that kind of stuff um
but then suddenly having that video element
even some of them
if you've seen my videos
some of them are ridiculous
they range from the sublime to the ridiculous
ha ha ha ha
but it's me
and I think that's what's interesting
so a lot of HR people I connected
once they've seen my video content had said
oh my word you're
you're just like me
like you're hilarious
you're funny
you're quirky
you get it like
it just made such a difference
so I think there's a whole
like a whole layer of HR people who are just
massively frustrated
but also hilarious
you're just holding it in
and I think I just released all of those
into the wild now so
now I've created all these HR people that are awesome
um but yeah I think uh
doing the video content made a really big difference
because of that visibility bit
um and then bringing it back to HR
I think I was just doing like a really
um I don't know
I think relatable
is probably the phrase that people use for me but um
really relatable from the HR profession space of
remember when this happens and how much we all hate it
or HR people
if you organize your Christmas party yet
you know all those things that are just
really relatable about the HR space
and then I think
you know having then been able to deliver
training for HR people and learning in development side
they then could see that actually
it's okay to be excited about HR
it's okay to be really passionate about what you do
and the value that you add
and it's okay to have fun at work
even in HR like
dare I say it
even in HR ha ha
that's amazing and um
anybody who wants also video tips
follow Harrison can tell
just a quick shout out to him again
cause he's amazing
and he's also on my body that's sharing some tips
but just what gave you the confidence
really a couple of techniques
so is it just like anything
specific that stands out to maybe other people who are
in that like struggling phase of videos
might take away from your experience
yeah I so I would say just do it
which sounds ridiculous to say right
but it only worked for me when Harrison
basically was beating me over the head and saying
everyday do a video everyday
I don't even care if you don't post it
do a video um
so one of the things he says a lot is just do a video
when you wake up in the morning
talk to camera and see how different you are everyday
like I just see the bitch you like
see the bitch you don't like
and you'll perfect it
you'll naturally perfect it as time goes on um
so that really helped me
was just getting into the rhythm of doing video and
and one of the other things that I say to people a lot
is you know
you have those days when you're really feeling yourself
like you've got you know
your makeup looks good
you got your nails did
you got your hair looking all fancy
like whatever that is
so you got a lovely top on
or you just you know
you think you look great
and that is the day to record a load of videos
like if you feel yourself and you feel like
oh my God I look great today
or I love my hair or blah blah blah
and just do a load of video
just back record a load of video
talking about anything you want
you don't even have to use all of them
but you've got
you've suddenly then got 15
20 30 videos
and all you need to do is just to edit them and caption
them when you're ready
like and it's just a gift
so that would be my biggest tip is
when you're
when you're feeling it
just do a record and just do a load of them
it's brilliant
absolutely you know
to add to that
I noticed that I also
don't force myself when I don't feel it
I think it's not bad to say like you know
you can record every day just to get in the practice
like doesn't mean you have to post it
but don't push
yourself to like
you know create
and have this final video when you're not feeling it
that was my biggest takeaway
I was like don't like
you don't have to like be
you don't wanna hate the process too
and I was like oh
I have to post every day
zero from like
from zero to 100 instantly
when I'm not feeling where many of the kids
and I just I was like hey
I that doesn't work for me
and it's not
really that important
to your point
people like your content
cause it's genuine
cause they felt the energy
and your energies
exactly won't be quite there if you're just like
miserable and having to do this
ha ha ha good
uh so thank you so much for sharing that
and I also want to create space like
let's talk about the HR things you are passionate about
I want to really uncover you
but there are a couple things
that really bring you to life that you want us to share
oh HR things are really passionate to me
I feel like um
one of the things I say all the time is
HR can change the world if you left it
and I think there's something that I'm massively
passionate about is so many HR people
are like squashed into this tea and tissues box
that just isn't what HR
are and what HR do
so HR is a profession for me
can massively
uptake your business
we can drive engagement
performance
deliverables
productivity
strategy you know
all those amazing things
but actually
if you're leaving your HR person to sit in the darkened
corner and write policies all day
you're not making the best use of them
and actually
dare I say it
if you're doing that to HR person
you probably don't need an HR person
you could probably save yourself a lot of money
just get an administrator
which is what I used to say
to my senior
leadership team all the time
like you don't need a Michelle for this
go and get yourself an admin
but you just don't need it um
so I think yeah
I'm passionate about the
the kind of
world changing
capacity of HR people
it's just that kind of letting
letting your HR person have a bit of a go and
get created
because they've got oodles of ideas
that just squashed into this admin box
that's a really boring
beige place
so I think that's something
I'm massively passionate about
and then just allowing
people to have fun
for God's sake
ha ha you know
it's funny I mentioned to see a thing in a purple
that I was in recruiting
right for like
the majority
of my career at Meadow
and before that
and I was considered
like recruiting
the fun side of HR is how it
describes yes
because like
here you are
you know you're like
oh I got an offer for you
and you and you
and we'll get high
ha ha and and yes
there are difficult parts um
but I get it you know
there are parts that could be very challenging
and I always feel like oh yeah
I had to do the fun part of the track
cause I know there are difficulties
you know um
but to your point
I also felt like it's very valuable again
people you may
might think you're recruiting is not like the
the most exciting place
but again you're bringing talent in
so everything that
people are doing in the company are being
is being touched by HR and what you're bringing there
and now like here you are you know
leading this training is bringing your full energy
but I'm guessing what are some of the big challenges
that we're still facing after you know
the covid reality has settled
maybe you want to touch upon
because I think we're not going to go back right
people are more dispersed
right there's more remote work happening
and I'm very grateful for that personally
I was remote for like all of Covid in my little ones
um but what are some new changing
realities that HR is facing because of these changes
yeah I think a lot of it job people now is seeing
you know the pace of Covid hasn't changed
even though the Covid chaos has gone
and it's it's funny
it comes up in every program I do where we talk about
you know well
being pace change management staff
is that every single HR person I've worked with said
you know in covid
the pace went from here to here
and it hasn't stopped you know
we just carried on this massive trajectory of Covid
chaos which is great for productivity
right like awesome
but the reality is your HR team
they're doing still like double the work
if not more in that pace again
and it just doesn't
it doesn't work with human beings right
we are human beings
not human doings
so I think it's that
that pasty bit has been
has been massive for HR people
particularly that I'm seeing in my programs um
and then we've got this awesome
AI explosion that has happened
which I just love
there's so much in there isn't that
it's really exciting um
but equally
I think it's a challenge
I think a lot of HR
people are worrying about AI taking our jobs
whereas the reality is a
I can take the awful bits of the jobs and do it for you
fine and then
you can do the good bits that you want to be doing um
so I think that's gonna be an interesting one to
to kinda watch
it's not quite burning people yet
I don't think
but there's that
that kinda burgeoning feeling about AI coming in
and it's gonna
it's gonna break us all
but I'm quite excited to see what happens with AI um
and then you're right around some remote nature of work
I think there's
I've seen two fold on this one
so I've seen um
the the kind of challenge of engaging remote workers
delivering our culture through dispersed teams
but equally
I've now seen organisations starting and over the UK
quite like pinging back
but starting to ping back
their employees back into the offices
and that's just so disappointing and frustrating
when we've had so many years now of working in
in this remote
you know super connected way
that it's a real disappointment
if we ping back
it'll be really
really disappointing
because we'll just miss so many opportunities
and we'll miss
you know so much in terms of that work
like balance
where actually
people can pick up their kids from school
and it's nice and it's okay
or you know
people can have a restful
day where they're working at home
but they're not putting on all that face
they're not putting on all the corporate clothing
they're not using their time for commuting
um so I think that's gonna be something that's coming
more and more and more now is
is where organisations are pinging back
and I think for HR people
what's happening is either
they're having to deliver that message
which is horrible yes
um or they're battling that message and
desperately trying to stop it
you know and trying to work with senior leaders
to convince them to stay in this hybrid space so yeah
it's an interesting space
I think at the moment
yeah I I feel like it's gonna be like
it's like a backlash right
it's like you have the title wave
and then now you're kind of dealing with the aftermath
and I hope there's a balance
because even as entrepreneur
I don't think this would be possible
if Covid didn't happen
and I don't
wanna say glorify that
but I think that normalization
of these conversations virtually
help things
even like podcast and entrepreneurs be like
hey if I'm not present
I can still do business
I can still be present virtually
and that's deemed just as it
as it as valid
because I think we've normalized this virtual
environment and having interactions this way
and I was talking to entrepreneurs before
like before covid
as somebody's working from Spain
entrepreneur in the US he's like
I couldn't do this right
cause you had to be in person
but now it's become more normal to be doing business
virtually and people don't deem that to be different
so I'm hoping
even you know
entrepreneur or not
that there's gonna be some balance
even if people right now
there's a contestant oh
now we have to go back
everything is normal
like they'll be in a
just like oh
what were the trade offs
happening over here
yeah and lastly
I want to give you space to talk about 2,024
what you're excited about
but maybe to wrap up
like how people reach out and work with the HR people
like as a quick tip for everybody listening music HR
I don't really work with them
unless something good really hits the fan
and if you're
looking for HR person
you're lovely
HR person ha ha
that is such a good question
cause nobody does it do they
I would say like
the first thing
this is like questions to ask your HR person
and the first thing I would say is
oh my word ask them how they are like
because no one asks HR
how they are
like genuinely
asks how they are
and I was talking to a number of HR people
um recently
and I was saying
like nobody
in no other
job do you have things that range from
employee deaths
and insurance
claims to like
delivering business strategy
and turnover
like it nowhere
has that massive
scope enrolled
and other than HR
and nowhere
gives you like
that level of training
like not no one
prepares you for this stuff
so I would say
genuinely ask your HR person how
how they're doing
and mean it
and probably
and maybe even ask twice
like that was the one thing that my um
my best CEO
ever got out of me was
he would always ask twice
so the first time
I'd be like
yeah fine thanks
and the second time
he'd ask again
almost straight after
and I'd be like
yeah I'm not
okay let's talk
ha ha ha ha
so ask how they are
and ask twice um
and then I would say
just talk with them about hey
I could really use your help
or I've had this idea
what do you think
you know I'd love to do this you know
get them engaged in
what you're doing
because that's where we shine
right we we're
probably the most creative function
you could ever have in an organization
but we're underutilized
so you know
if you've got an idea
go in early
and use your HR
person's brain
cause they're big
and they've got lots of information in them
I love that
I love all of what's in like
even for just general humans
and ask how they are
have the curiosity and like
utilize the strength of people
who maybe you haven't thought about before
but have brilliant
minds and have that capacity
for thinking
largely okay
beautiful advice
I'm glad we got that in there
cause it's so important
and I know we've talked about you
but I want to also give
wisdom for everybody working with HR
individuals
okay Michelle
here we are
as for record
is wrapping up 2,023
this will come out
right at the beginning of 2,024
so congrats to you for listening
happy 2,024
Michelle what are
some thoughts
feel like what
as you're flexing on this year
what are some big wins
and takeaways
and what are you excited for
2,024 oh big win
some we had
um so I run
HR Community
called the HR Geek Squad
and we had this question
in our little um
our little WhatsApp
group that we have
which is what are you most proud of this year
um and I really struggled initially
and I can only think of things in the last like
month or two
and then as I
was reflecting more
I was like oh my god
I won an award this year
that's amazing
like that's Pinnacle
career moment yeah
so I'm really proud
that I won the
Inspirational
Indie award
so the most
inspirational HR
independent
that was very cool
that was amazing
congratulations
very cool thank you
and and then
I also think
I'm just proud of
like allowing
myself to feel
through the business
and to find my joy
like I am genuinely
the most happy
I think I've ever been in a job
ever so that
that's a massive
huge thing to be proud of right
um and then I think
I'm really proud of like
my my brand
if you've seen on LinkedIn
it's full of
rainbows oh
yeah oh yeah
I have happiness in it
it's hard to miss
it's hard to miss
ha ha ha which is another
deliberate act on my part
ha ha ha ha ha
like they're peacock in a flock of pigeons
um so I uh deliberately like
have love that
my brand is really
kind of settled and connected
um and then
I think for next year
I'm just really excited for more of the same
like to see what's coming
I'm genuinely
excited to see what comes next
like I've realised
that one of my superpowers
is connection
so this year
I'm thinking about
I always have a Christmas
think by the way
so this is my Christmas
think time um
so my Christmas
think time is about
how can I like
use that superpower
and deliver
even more with it
so I'm thinking about a few things where
maybe it's about
you know connecting
senior leaders
or connecting HR people
but that's my
that's my burgeoning
thought that I'm quite excited about
is where my connection
superpower will take me
I love that well
if you need
suggestions
in the in the US
I would be happy to cook
for all my wonderful
HR people over here yeah
you mentioned the HR
Geek Squad but also
we haven't touched you about your find
your awesome program
so do you want to maybe
share about those two things
who is it for
who can benefit from it
because I don't want you to leave
without mentioning those
ah thank you
yes so the HR
Geek Squad is
my HR community
I've currently
capped it at
100 geeks um
because we wanted to keep the
like community
fields but oh
my word is so fun
so we get together
once a month on zoom
uh we do like
learning together
on a particular topic
so we've got speakers
booked up until
October next year
um and we have
what I call
like a feral
WhatsApp group
so it's basically
imagine if you locked
all of your HR
people room
got them really drunk
and threw in
some random jokes
that is my WhatsApp group
and which is just gold
it is gold um
so that has
been really good
uh I don't uh
weirdly I don't charge
very much for it
I probably should
charge more
but I don't um
so it's only £99
for the year
so it's just a
really kind of
reasonable yeah
ha ha ha ha ha
because I just do it
for the joy
and that's probably
my problem um
but I do it with a joy
because I just love it
so much so that's
that's the geeks
and then um
the find your awesome
program is my HR
business partner program
so it's 10 weeks
an hour a week
over zoom every week um
but I called
it find your
awesome because
ah I wanted
people to realise
that they were
always awesome
I just helped them
uncover it so
there was a really
deliberate choice
in my naming
of the program
and what's lovely is
so many people
resonate with it
like so many of
the graduates
come out and they say
are you alright
I totally found my
awesome you know
I had a post
this week from a delegate
and their boss
commented on it
and said oh
you definitely
found your awesome
we can all see it
and I was like
oh my heart aww
so so lovely
um but what's
interesting with it is
I set out to be an
HR business
partner program
but I'm getting
more and more requests
from leaders
and organisations
to just deliver it
as a development program
and I hadn't
appreciated
when I made it
that it's just valid
as a development
program as well
so yeah isn't
that might that
might be another
2024 thing to
look out for
but yeah so
it covers cool
things like
imposter syndrome
being commercial
um personal brand
which is obviously
my favourite
um question skills
all that kind of stuff
there's lots of
good topics
in there that aren't
just necessary
for HR people
so yeah that's me
I'm so excited for you
again like it's
lovely to see
where this journey and
takes you to
right you start
with one idea
it blossoms
and then you
things kind of grow
even in the ways
you don't expect
but you're you're
focused like
you're like
oh maybe I'm selling
myself sure
like you're
you're not right
you're growing your brand
people find value
and I just fully trust that
as long as your intention
is to help people
right and you
bring your full
self to like
things will go
as they should
you know you'll
find more value
more opportunities
and all that
will come to place
um Michelle
anything else
you wanna add
you have been
so generous
of your time
sharing your
whole story
being so um
transpired and
like bring this
beautiful energy
to this process
did we miss anything
before we wrap up
with final 3
rapper questions
no I don't think
so I loved it
thank you so much
it's been a joy
it's been an
absolute joy
and the time has flown
so thank you so much
I feel exactly
the same way
time has flown by
but here right
track we wrap up
a 3 wrapper
for a question
so whenever
you're ready
let me know
and I'll shoot away
okay go okay
so let's see
um a non HR
book that shaped
a professional
philosophy oh
well I think
The Poison Would
Bible is one
because it's
about a family
of missionaries
who live in the Congo
but it's all
around each
personality
of what they do
and how they
kind of come to their
realisations
about their
family life
so it just a
really great
one for me to
think about
and how people can
really connect
so definitely
give that a go
oh I love that
okay a song
that gets you
in the zone
for a big challenge
always Lizzo
anything by Lizzo
like literally
anything I am
the biggest fan
in my Spotify wrapped
I'm in the top
North Point
North 5% of
Lizzo listeners
so anything
Lizzo is the
answer to that
one oh my gosh
I love that
I love you even more
for saying that
okay last but
not least um
in the positive
sense going
off track is
oh is being
um courageous
enough to be
brave and say
what you mean
beautiful beautiful concise
beautiful to the point Michelle
your delight and to all of our listeners
thank you so much
for investing your time in being here
I hope you came here and
hopefully you got something about HR
but most importantly
I hope you found something about yourself
you found some inspiration to follow your awesomeness
embrace your journey
and bring that 1% kind of strategy to mind
like what is the 1% of you doing something for yourself
and just have the sense like where could that take you
in getting inspiration from Michelle's journey
so thank you so much for coming up track of us
and as always
let's take over the world together
right off track
Michelle thank you so much for being here
thank you I loved it
thank you so much for having me
our pleasure
take care bye bye
by saying no to standing out
join me Anya Smith
Michelle so excited to have you here