Elevating Business Through the Science of Happiness - Jackson Kerchis is RightOffTrack

Anya Smith:
Hello everyone, welcome to RightOffTrack podcast where we explore the extraordinary journeys of individuals who have dared to embrace unconventional paths on their personal success journey. I'm your host Anya Smith, and today get ready to be inspired by an exceptional trailblazer. Meet Jackson Kerchis, an author, instructor, executive coach, and self-proclaimed happiness nerd. His journey began in the world of business, but it took an unexpected turn when he pivoted to create the world's first bachelor's degree in happiness studies at the University of Alabama. Drawing from positive psychology, neuroscience, philosophy and more, Jackson's innovative approach to education was just the beginning. After a transformative period as a Zen monk, Jackson found his passion at the crossroads of well-being and organizational performance. As the managing partner at Happiness Means Business, he's on a mission to ignite workplaces and individuals alike with a focus on military first responders transformation, excuse me. With a focus on military first responders, transportation, sales, and healthcare, Jackson's impact is vast. In this episode, we'll delve into the fascinating learning happiness model, explore the insights he gained through his time as a Zen monk, and uncover the depths of his coaching, training, and consulting work. Jackson's journey is a testament to embracing one's unique passion and following them fearlessly. Let his story inspire you to tap into your limitless potential and create a life on your own terms. Because if Jackson can do it, Why not you? So I'm excited to welcome to Jackson himself. Welcome Jackson, thanks for joining us.

Jackson Kerchis:
Yeah, thank you for having me.

Anya Smith:
A pleasure, a pleasure. And we got to know each other through the Changing Work Collective. So I'm grateful that we have these conscious businesses who are coming together. And I was very intrigued, of course, by the happiness degree. I wish that was something that was out there. So could you tell us a little bit, how in the heck did you first find it to be meaningful, right? And then create something like that where there's a degree on the subject, if you don't mind us starting there.

Jackson Kerchis:
Yeah, I think that's a great place to start. Well, I think it really came down to the sort of, it's top of mind for me, so I was talking with a friend through this idea of like, what do I wanna do with my life? Which I feel is somewhat of a never ending question.

Anya Smith:
Yes.

Jackson Kerchis:
And I was grappling with that very intensely. I think it was my sophomore year of college. I'd gone to the University of Alabama on scholarship. And I think at that point, I was almost done with my economics degree. And I really just kept having that issue of like, well, what do I want to do? What do I have to do?

Anya Smith:
right?

Jackson Kerchis:
I finally, I think I started to shift when I started to think, well, like, okay, I know that I can learn about anything. I'm sort of a nerdy type. And I was like, all right, well, what do I really want to learn about? Like, what's the most important thing? And I still remember one morning I just woke up and I was like, Oh, I could study happiness. So I was like, everything that. To study anything else is just a means to an end of happiness, isn't it?

Anya Smith:
Right.

Jackson Kerchis:
So if I want to study finance or go to medical school or be a lawyer so that I can have a great career and have a good life in order to be happy. So I'm like, well, why don't I just study happiness and sort of cut out the middle man, so to speak. And once I decided that I just, that's the direction I took. I took immediate action and I was somewhat fortunate that the university of Alabama has a great program called new college. that sort of facilitates creating your own major. Typically it's more like a traditional major of,

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
let's say you have neuroscience, but Alabama doesn't have neuroscience. So you put something together. Mine was from scratch. I think I broke the record for the most independent research credits, but that was it. It's all the same from that sort of insight.

Anya Smith:
I love that. And it reminds me of the John Lennon quote where he talks about his teacher asks him what does he want to be when he grew up and he's like, I want to be happy. And like, no, you don't understand the question. He's like, no, you don't understand life. I'm paraphrasing. That's so true. We always were striving to do all this great stuff but hopefully the underlying theme is we want to feel fulfilled and we want to feel a certain way in our life versus just the monetary things or the superficial things. But I'm curious, what was the response? Like when you're like, you know what? I have a degree idea. It's gonna be about happiness. How do you go from like you being excited about it to actually showing the value behind it? Because we all wanna be happy, but coincidentally, we take that as like a fluffy potentially ideal and not like the hard ROI money behind it kind of thing.

Jackson Kerchis:
Yeah, I would say I've been pleasantly surprised by the feedback I got because I have that same maybe concern or skepticism going into it. And I was, yeah, I think I was almost surprised a little bit and then how much it immediately sort of resonated with people. I remember this was back in my college days, I was involved in management consulting. So we used to do these corporate visits and we were in Goldman Sachs and Dallas and the way there was some ladies like. Hey, someone here said on their resume that they're a happiness major. Who is that? Like I want to talk to you. Right. So I think that there's some, uh, even in the situations you would not expect, there's some inkling that on a deep level, you know, it's easy for us to maybe get distracted or mistake achievement or progress or these other things for happiness. But when you actually just put it in front of someone, I think often we kind of realized like, Oh, well, this is sort of life's most important subject to paraphrase, Mathieu Ricard. So yeah, I was surprised how much it did resonate. And I always tried to focus on saying, look, I'm interested too, in how do you take an individual or a group of people and help them to be happier? Like I'm not really interested in like a philosophical discussion of like, what is happiness, as much as it being very practical, so.

Anya Smith:
And what has been the result of that? So now the program lives beyond you, right? If I understand that correctly. So there's actually people who aren't, who besides you have this major, right? Or degree kind of focus, is that right? And kind of what had been some of the impact people who are going through this now, if you can share.

Jackson Kerchis:
Yeah, so the sort of legacy at Alabama, I elected to not sort of set it up as an ongoing major just because honestly I was like, I don't think that everyone needs to major in happiness. But what we did do is I offer a course now through their continuing studies department, uh, which kind of an online course somewhat similar

Anya Smith:
Cool.

Jackson Kerchis:
to Laurie Santos is very popular science of wellbeing from Yale that kind of blew up on Coursera. Um, they have an online curriculum and that may be something I I go back to and I'm dabbling with maybe creating the first happiness PhD or something in the coming

Anya Smith:
Ooh,

Jackson Kerchis:
years.

Anya Smith:
I'm thinking about it. I finished my second master's right now and I was like, well, maybe down the line, maybe a PhD. But that would be something intriguing for me. I love it. But besides that degree, like now you've undertaken happiness means business. I love the title. So kudos to you or whoever came up with that. So how has the focus from a degree evolved into this endeavor?

Jackson Kerchis:
Yeah, that's a great question. Well, it turns out there was somewhat of a, maybe a natural connection that at first I wouldn't have forecasted, but it works out quite well in that probably in the last 10 years or so, there's been a lot more research that links happiness to performance. And particularly, I think about the work of Sean Aker, who had a very like viral TED talk in his book, The Happiness Advantage. Right. And there are other positive psychologists who contributed to this, but it sort of was science finally came around to backing up intuition. And when I say that is, I mean, you know, we tend to think, right, that when I feel good and I am happy and I'm well rested and I'm emotionally stable, et cetera, I'm going to perform better. We all kind of, yeah, that makes sense. But what you see in, for instance, Sean Achor's work is that there's a very clear relationship that it's actually that happiness and I'm sort of we'll define happiness for now as abundance of positive emotion, leads to success. Happier people are more creative, they're more engaged, they're just generally more effective, they earn more money. And so that's kind of the work that we draw on, happiness means business for myself, my business partner, Paul, is we, whether we're working one-on-one with individuals or in organizations, we work military, kind of say, look, there are certain elements of happiness and wellbeing at the organizational level. And when we cultivate those, we're gonna drive outcomes around not only obvious ones like recruitment and retention, but oftentimes actual performance benefits because people are in a more optimal emotional state.

Anya Smith:
But it was funny, maybe it's just me, but when I think about the military and some people that you focus on, I'm not like, oh, that is the happy group of people. And I don't mean that it's just not like this, but I'm curious, can you challenge, can you share some of the misconceptions around happiness and kind of who is this course right for and the kind of impact it could have? Because I can think like, oh, when I think about happiness, my first natural response is like, oh, I see that that's helpful for the military, but clearly there's really strong impact and value there. even in those kind of settings. So what are some of the misconceptions you have to challenge with your program?

Jackson Kerchis:
Yeah. So I think the, it oftentimes depends on the audience of who, uh, the program or the intervention or whatever is for, uh, right. For instance, we worked with a very large trucking company around kind of safety focused outcomes. And so it's sort of like, there may be obstacles or misconceptions around happiness have a little bit more to do with, uh, like work life balance because it's a heavily seasonal industry. And.

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
during this peak season, they're working like 80 hours a week. Right. So that's maybe a little different to, uh, some, one of the first people I coached was the former CFO of a major hospital and, you know, her issues were a lot more around sort of, um, maybe being very achievement oriented and being a little

Anya Smith:
Mm-hmm.

Jackson Kerchis:
bit burnt out and disengaged from her work. And then I would say military, some of the maybe misconceptions or Things they've struggled with in the past has sort of been a somewhat what you expect with a military style of leadership that's somewhat more command and control. It tends to be a little bit more reserved and sort of lacking psychological safety or kind of even friendship, right? Which I sometimes am cautious about bringing that in when we work with clients. But I say, look, if you look at Gallup, who they are one of the world leaders in workforce engagement, one of the first questions they ask is. Do you have a best friend at work?

Anya Smith:
Mm.

Jackson Kerchis:
And on a space you're like, what? Why would you ask that? But it's highly predictive of retention and engagement. So yeah, it definitely depends on the context, but I think generally it has a lot to do with getting clear on sort of what the outcome is besides just happiness

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
and then the specific context of the client.

Anya Smith:
I love that. And you know, my misconception around happiness is that happiness is like this fleeting state, right? Like we're happy in the moment, but how can you sustain that? And when you, for me, like I don't necessarily say expectations about happy as like a point of like achievement. Like I'm happy and safe, but more like contentment. I know that doesn't sound as sexy or happy. I mean, as a glamorous like, but I mean, like it's sustainable level of appreciating what I have right now versus defining like a future state. that's temporary of achievement. So is there kind of a cultivation of that, maybe balance between contentment and happiness where it's like a current state of good and like, you know, a balanced state of being versus like this emotional fleeting state of happiness?

Jackson Kerchis:
Yeah, I think that's a great observation. And I've had even the other day, my friend was sort of joking with me that it's like, oh, I thought, you know, we were talking about even my own happiness. And he was saying, well, yeah, I think what you should be calling it is like the deep contentment or satisfaction.

Anya Smith:
Ha

Jackson Kerchis:
Right. And

Anya Smith:
ha ha!

Jackson Kerchis:
I'm like, yes, maybe, yeah, probably. But

Anya Smith:
Less sexy, right? That's the

Jackson Kerchis:
yeah,

Anya Smith:
challenge.

Jackson Kerchis:
I always liked happiness because it sort of hits you like, wait, happiness major. But there's an interesting model. Then there's many ways you can slice it. So Martin Seligman has... which is wonderful where you say, well-being or happiness is composed of positive emotion, engagement, relationships, meaning, achievement. Talban Shahar has SPIRE, which is spiritual, physical, intellectual, relational, and emotional health. I won't name all the models, but a very kind of useful one to get at your question, and it actually comes from Daniel Kahneman, who explains that we really have two different selves, and these two selves experience happiness or... treat happiness differently. So use the example of you're on a first date and it's going really well for two hours, you're gonna know one another. And then right at the very end, maybe you go in for like a hug and it's kind of awkward or something. So you're experiencing self had, let's say two hours of happiness,

Anya Smith:
Right.

Jackson Kerchis:
but you're remembering self is probably going to remember that whole date as kind of awkward or it didn't go well.

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
And so you say, well, how is it then that I can have two hours of happiness, but then I remember it as unhappy. And it gets at this idea of experiencing versus reflecting. And when you kind of tease that out to, let's say a self assessment of happiness, they're actually somewhat different because I could be, um, let's say maybe I have a fairly high status role and I'm very successful on paper, but I don't experience a lot of positive emotion. If you were to ask me, Jackson, with your life as a whole, are you happy? Are you satisfied? I might kind of, I pause and I reflect and

Anya Smith:
Right?

Jackson Kerchis:
say, well, you know, based on where other people are and everything I have, I guess I am happy. But conversely, you could be experiencing a lot of positive emotions day to day. And then someone asks you, well, think about your life as a whole. And you're like, actually, well, I could be a little bit better. So there's

Anya Smith:
Right.

Jackson Kerchis:
sort of different factors that map to each one. But I ultimately think that happiness with a capital H, I sometimes say, is when you have both of those, right, you have sort of this reflective, cognitive, overall life satisfaction, feeling of accomplishment, etc. And then you're also smiling off and experiencing positive emotions day to day.

Anya Smith:
Yeah, I think it is a balance. And like, I think there's again, that compassion and that's where I caution myself from like viewing happiness as like this goal where if I'm not happy every moment, like then I'm failing, like it doesn't have to be an extreme but it's like looking at it from a broad spectrum like how can I be more content and happy and celebrate, you know, the memories and the current state as much as possible and kind of also try to balance it out where if it's one extreme or the other, what can I do to kind of bring it towards the middle? And if you remind me asking like one thing that fastens fascinates me especially about corporate cultures. There's a lot of challenges happening right now, especially with a lot of layoffs happening. Maybe it's just me because I was in the tech space so it really hits home. But how do we help people in this situation where there's a lot of stress, there's a lot of layoffs, there's this looming kind of psychological safety from even COVID. A lot of stress is kind of compiling onto our lives and then we go into our work and it's additional level of balancing expectations in the work demand. How do we show up? happy in that sense. Are there any learnings that you would recommend that's really helping people right now with a very elevated sense of stress and their demands and their work?

Jackson Kerchis:
Yeah, maybe three points that come up for me. I mean, I always am big on starting with the kind of the foundations of the physical level. And that it's like, I wish sometimes, you know, there was this more elegant and impressive happiness stuff, but a lot of what you see is like some of the most effective interventions are simply consistent exercise.

Anya Smith:
Mm-hmm.

Jackson Kerchis:
So you look at, there was just a recent report. I think it was in the Washington Post. that referenced an article in some journal, I don't know, I just made a LinkedIn video about it, but I don't remember the detail, that

Anya Smith:
Check out

Jackson Kerchis:
they,

Anya Smith:
LinkedIn.

Jackson Kerchis:
yeah, they were explaining that a recent study found that for anxiety, exercise was pretty much equally as effective as a very commonly prescribed anti-anxiety medication.

Anya Smith:
Mm-hmm.

Jackson Kerchis:
And that echoes previous sediments around, exercise, a ton of benefits to your brain, as much as your body. Then you think about sleep. So Matthew Walker wrote a book, I believe in the last two years ago, I think it was the power of sleep or something in that effect. But he's one of the world's leading experts on this. And it's basically 300 some pages of just telling you like everything in your health depends on sleep. And so I think often, uh, that sort of foundation is key for managing stress. Oftentimes. When you have a lot going on, it can feel very overwhelming and it sort of crowds in on you. And often the first things to go are having adequate time for mental and physical rest and recovery, having time to get some exercise, having time or having this sort of bandwidth to wind down and get a good night's sleep. So I start with prioritizing the foundation. I often say that your kind of physical energy is the foundation for these higher order. levels of energy, whether it's cognitive, emotional,

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
etc. Two other things to consider. One is stress is enhancing mindset. I know that's sort of in vogue right now, and I don't know all the different researchers. A friend of mine who I worked with once before, Jennifer Wegman, she does some work on that, but basically this idea that, you know, there's of course limits to this, but oftentimes we have a stress is debilitating mindset. But if you were to actually just review the scientific literature, it's kind of equally true that stress is enhancing. It just depends on the dosage.

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
So having that attitude of stress is enhancing. And then a final one is I often think of as just comparison. And this one I'm less drawing from the literature and more just practical experience, but typically in the U S even if you're laid off or you're having some very, very serious emotionally draining challenges. Right. The odds that you're going to starve, especially if you're coming from a, let's say middle-class corporate background or even lower middle-class corporate background, uh, are very low. So if you were to look at just even footage of what's going on in places like India, you have Africa, somewhat cliche, I know to say that, but it's true that oftentimes what we view as real stressors and problems, if we were to sort of view it from this. third person, broader global context, very much like, wow, this is not so bad. And I do the same thing as myself as an entrepreneur. I'll be like, oh, now, you know, now I have permission to be stressed because it's really serious. If I don't get these sales or get a new client,

Anya Smith:
Bye.

Jackson Kerchis:
I'm going to not make money. And it's like, well, like I'm probably not going to ever be like, am I going to eat next week? Like it's,

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
it's all in here.

Anya Smith:
Perspective is very powerful. I think sometimes I like sometimes like to add humor to my catastrophizing, where it's like usually it ends up with like the meteor starting the meteor striking the world. Like

Jackson Kerchis:
Mm-hmm.

Anya Smith:
I'm like, OK, well, this is going to go here and this is really bad. And then let's take it like zombie apocalypse. The meteor is striking. They're like, I want to like really get into my head, like just how even though it seems like reasonable, really it's draining a lot of energy. And it is kind of silly as certain folks. for a time like to worry about everything in the world at the same amount of time. Like where honestly I only have so much control. Right. So I think like the stress that we take on has to be balanced for us to find some, some level of happiness and perspective. Like to your point, like hopefully things aren't as dire, right. And hopefully that per that reflection can give you a little bit of just like a breather from like, okay, if it's not going to be the end of the world in this situation, can I give myself a little bit of a piece to just like maybe call myself, get some physical healing so I can respond to that situation better versus like feeding all this energy into it and then maybe like not having the capacity to actually solve it better.

Jackson Kerchis:
Yeah, absolutely. Um, and it, I mean, it reminds me, I saw this video the other day and I got a kick out of it, but they were showing a side, like it was a back to back videos of LeBron James and Steven Adams, another NBA player during COVID and LeBron was talking about, Oh, it's so hard. You wouldn't believe it. We get back to our rooms and we can't see our friends and family. And I'm just sitting there in these blank white walls. And I'm like, what's going on. And they cut to Steven Adams because this was during the During COVID they had them in the bubble for the NBA

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
season and Stephen Adams goes we're living in a resort Like like we're not in Syria here, right? And so I sometimes use that same sort of thought of myself it's like I'm not in like I'm living in a resort essentially like

Anya Smith:
Yeah. But do you mind me asking, like one thing I do find challenging, being in the corporate world, like we can rest and kind of have the perspective, but sometimes I feel like, I don't know, I start my day and I'm like, oh yeah, conquer the world. I feel good. And then you go into it and you think, oh, and then you have a task, a task, a deadline, that are like all of these pressures. And then I personally found it really hard to come out of the day feeling as good as I started it. Although I had all the good intentions, although I tried not to compare. Are you is there anything in your coaching of clients that helps them like get through the day stronger and maybe not get caught up in everything if you have anything to share?

Jackson Kerchis:
Yeah, I think a couple things to consider is first number one, the work of Alex Pang in general, I really like he has written several books and I don't forget the exact title, but one of them is something to the effect of just like rest. It's like an analysis of rest. And he, he often talks, he talks about having a it's important to have a strong rest ethic, as much as a strong work ethic and he in

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
that book and even some talks he's given and whatnot. He sort of often will talk about this, like the daily schedule of prolific creators and thinkers.

Anya Smith:
Mm.

Jackson Kerchis:
And oftentimes they were at their desks for a mask, a maximum of like four to five hours of sort of the, what you think of as sitting down for deep focused work. They often take a sort of leisurely afternoon space. They often have some sort of like hobby that's intensely engaging that allows them the sort of unplug I sometimes say that the brain is like a car battery it recharges through use so like passive leisure is not as good as like some active leisure So some of it I think is how you structure your day with kind of limiting the deep work block I personally find to taking some time away in the kind of mid-afternoon from the hours of About two to four I say I'm essentially like useless And it's just not like it's not gonna happen, right?

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
They say like two hours in the One hour in the morning is worth two in the afternoon, at least for me. So, so I understand, I try to structure my day in a way, and then this is harder, of course, in a corporate environment, but trying to structure your day in a way that's sort of going with the flow, so to speak of your natural energies and rhythms. And yeah, I think a big part of that is to the extent you can, um, trying to take maybe a little bit of an afternoon break, or even if it is a walking meeting or Something like that, I feel goes a long way.

Anya Smith:
It's interesting, I think on our conversation, we talk about happiness and we talk about the happiness helps us be better achievers, but in fact, although we constantly feel like we need to be doing more and more and more to get more to get to the happiness, what I hear you saying is like, let's actually focus on doing less in a way that restores you. Find that balance where you actually giving back to yourself physically and mentally and restoring your capacity to be better.

Jackson Kerchis:
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, that's how you long term are going to sustain. Like, I mean, I even think it's okay once in a while, if you need to do kind of a sprint or you need to say in weight training, it'd be the equivalent of overtraining for a little bit. But I think the problem, and I'm also guilty of this is. We're sort of perpetually in a state of over, cause you always,

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
I'll say that is something I've seen in myself. Be like, you know, I just got to get through this next, like two weeks. And then I can sort of like step back a little bit or tone it down a little bit. And then I'll review my journals or conversations with my mastermind group. And they're like, Oh, you've said that like 12 other weeks this year, but you don't really know it while it's happening. So

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
that's one caution.

Anya Smith:
You know what's interesting? You said that in early, you said like in different situations where maybe you wouldn't be, it might be a surprise people to ask about their best friend. Like I think similar thinking that apply to entrepreneurship, right? Or solopreneurs, like where it might be a role where you imagine being more individualistic, where you are kind of irresponsible for your own thing. You don't necessarily maybe even have a business partner, right? But there's still an opportunity to have that best friend or kind of your tribe where to your point, like maybe they're getting you, like giving you an honest reflection. It's been week 12 of you saying two weeks from now, right? It's a different checkpoint of like, hey, how are you doing? Or like giving you a perspective on like balancing yourself. And also like, I like the idea of like active thinking, like so where your brain is recovering through maybe like sharing your perspective of sharing your things with your friends. So you're still doing something with me where you're learning and kind of sharing ideas, but it's also giving you that re-energizing boost. by having your tribe or a friend, even though it's maybe like an entrepreneurial setting. I think that applies in a wide variety of settings. So one thing I'm excited to dive into is like the Zen part of your world, which is fascinating because I don't even know exactly where that started in your journey and kind of how it intertwined with like the other things that you've done in terms of your business and your school. So you give me a sense of like, how did you go from, you know, all of this, or even before this, like to getting yourself to be a Zen monk, that's like quite a, quite a leap.

Jackson Kerchis:
Yeah, well, it reminds me of there's a teaching by Schopenhauer as a philosopher who says that as you look back over your life, it sometimes feels as though it almost had a certain order to it. And these events and people and chance encounters end up being sort of the elements of a consistent plot, almost as if it were arranged by some sort of conscious principle beyond your conscious or in the almost in the way that like you have a dream and it's like it all was in a story, but you're like who was directing the story and I've had that experience with a lot of my life and It sort of all tied in with the Zen and the happiness the work I'm doing now But it all started essentially. I took a gap year after high school. I Basically travel I don't know traveled the world makes it sounds more impressive than it is but I lived in Central America for several months and then moved to Portugal and went through Europe. During that time, I watched a video. Uh, it was a Ted talk by Matt, they, you write Ricard, which I highly recommend. And if you search the habits of happiness, you can find it. And it was basically neuroscience meets Buddhism on the topic of happiness. And in that talk, he explained how happiness is really, you know, what we often think of as happiness, getting our point earlier about some of the misconceptions is pleasure. But he's like, well, look, think about if you have a piece of chocolate cake, right? The first piece is really good. The second piece, not so much. The third piece is shame. So, uh, he says,

Anya Smith:
Ha ha

Jackson Kerchis:
so that's, that's not it. Right. But there's something here on this idea of the more Buddhist view of mental training, which this idea that in the same way you train your body, I want to be an Olympic lifter and I can get really strong, you can train your mind to favor. Um, more positive emotional states and sort of avoid or. Mute gravitate away from negative states. And he showed some of the work from Richie Davidson's lab at the university of Wisconsin, where they did put meditators in brain scans and saw some of the differences in their brains. And I was like, okay, this all makes a ton of sense to me, especially just growing up some of the experiences I've had. So I started, uh, I tried a free eight week mindfulness course, mindfulness based stress reduction. And over the course of those eight weeks, I felt like I had totally transformed my life. And I was just like, never going to be the same. And so right then I decided like, you know, I think that sort of got into my subconscious a little bit, and I also decided I would definitely be doing at some point in my life, an immersive long-term practice. And so I think that whole experience probably planted some of the seeds for a couple of years later, the happiness interest. But then that whole time I had been meditating, I knew I was gonna do something. And I wasn't necessarily tied to it has to be this Buddhism or that

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
or whatever sort of mindfulness in general, but it ended up timing and everything. And a friend of a friend, it worked out that I ended up going to San Francisco Zen Center, which was basically the first Zen temple in the US and founded in the 60s by Shunryu Suzuki from Japan. And that, so it just sort of was that chance encounter with that video that compounded into that.

Anya Smith:
Yeah, I'm curious. I will not remind you of like the whole neuro scans. Like from what I read, like the happiest person in the world was like a Zen monk or a Buddhist monk. I forget exactly the right order, but like it is fascinating that they find like the people who do meditate, like even if it's subtle, right? Even if it's not perfect, right? You just having the continuous practice can make it show in your neuro scans like that ability to respond less emotionally. And I found it fascinating, I forget where it was quoted, but like that when we, what they would test meditators and non-meditators, like they would be told like they're doing something that may be like painful. I don't know, like a shot or whatever, forget exactly. But non-meditators would anticipate the pain and respond. Like you would see them like they respond emotionally in anticipation of that. And then they'd be dwelling on that experience afterwards, right? While meditators or people who are like, they would still respond to the pain, but not before and after. And that's very beautiful and powerful to think about, not that I'm going to get to that point of meditation, but the fact like ultimately a lot of times we experience a lot of emotional drain before and after the fact, when really the situation that causes that stress is very, really much shorter, right? Like the dynamic element of pain or whatever is much shorter, but the ability to be more present in the moment and remind ourselves of that difference can help us like figure out what's really important and use our energy accordingly and like I think that also ties into the happiness thing where a lot of times we're Chasing chasing thinking that's gonna get us to that happy state versus realizing like what about now? What's happening now that's making me happy what can I appreciate now? what were some of the most challenging parts of that journey if you don't mind me asking like Was there something that you had to redefine yourself or kind of challenge your own kind of perception of life? Or do you mind sharing what that experience was like going from like everything you knew to then like the Zen experience?

Jackson Kerchis:
Yeah. Yeah, no, of course. Happy to answer anything about it. It I think the hardest thing, well, it's almost hard to describe because it's all sort of these states.

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
But I mean, the hardest thing I think was just the boringness and the non doing because essentially I was going from as a college student, but also starting my entrepreneurial journey. And I also was running a fintech startup and going from that to basically my job. being get up at 415 with the wake up bell, do like a two to three hour meditation service and then all day, I didn't I wouldn't have my phone. So it was like kind of like work practice. So ideally, you're sort of doing your work mindfully, not really messing around and stuff and then more meditation dinner. So it really what I found is I sometimes describe it as productivity anxiety. And that as I went into this, I found that at all times I was sort of subconsciously scanning for things to do. So I'd be like, I'm supposed to just be sweeping, but it's like, Oh, I could like write an email about this or like, how could I, uh, you know, market myself

Anya Smith:
Five

Jackson Kerchis:
as like,

Anya Smith:
ways to sweep.

Jackson Kerchis:
yeah, like, and so I found that sort of mental chatter and sort of a, almost like an inner tension was always sort of active. And it has a very like. polling energy is how I describe it. Polling as in P-U-L-L-I-N-G. And yeah, what I started to realize is like, oh, I call that my inner sort of productivity, anxiety or neuroticism. And it's not that I'm, I hate it or I should try to get rid of it, but it was interesting to experience how, it's almost like I feel like if you were to have a splinter that was pretty bad or a piece of glass in your foot, and you just went around with it for months and months and months and years, eventually you probably like, You don't even almost notice the pain you're in.

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
I think it was very similar to that, where I was like, wow, it's really a persistent sort of pulling me out of my zone, pulling me out of being present to feel some sort of worry about nothing. And it's a conditioned pattern. So that was something to experience very intimately.

Anya Smith:
Yeah, what was it like then like going back to normal life? Like, was it hard to readjust or kind of to keep that remembrance of the splinter and not get back into the group? Like, okay, back at it.

Jackson Kerchis:
Yeah, I think I've failed a little bit in that. I mean, that's maybe being harsh on myself, but it's true. I mean, I say so much of what I teach is I'm a big believer in the power of your environment and there's limits to, I think, what you can do depending on the environment you're in. But that being said, the transition out, I think, there was something to be said for it. Again, it's almost hard to appreciate. the ability to which when you have settled the mind and actively practiced increased awareness, your awareness increases. And again, when I just say that you're like, what does that even mean? But it's like taste is more vivid, colors are more vivid. The day I left, I hadn't, I'd been in the mountains for like two months at this point. In the airport, I was just like looking around like, whoa. This is crazy. I'm like a kid in an amusement park. I had my little airplane meal and it, normally if I'm being honest now when I eat, it's kind of like a, like Shamu. It's like a chomp and swallow, just inhale

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
the meal. I had my little airplane meal, it'd take me like 25 minutes to eat. So yes, certainly your awareness can be increased and it's, I think it is a challenge. You really appreciate how our modern cognitive environments are designed to be as sort of mentally draining and overstimulating as possible. And I think certainly having some daily practice can help to buffer that, but it's a whole different experience to be in a kind of an immersive container.

Anya Smith:
So, and I'm curious, like now focusing on your work, like how do you help people find like, what is that happiness for them? Because I think a lot of that reason we're stressing because we're again, given a lot of ideas of what should make us happy, whether it's that job, that income, that car, whatever it is, there's a lot of pressure, like you have to look a certain way, you have to do all this stuff, you have to go to school. But is part of the work also figuring out like what happiness really is for us?

Jackson Kerchis:
Yeah, I do think that's a big part of it. And I think part of it is also, so sometimes say a good starting place is, I say, well, you know, just rate your own happiness, let's say from one to 10, and maybe a couple of the people that you trust, try to get them to be honest, rate your happiness, and the number may surprise you. And if you're not happy with the number, this even has happened to me a couple of times in my life.

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
I mean, a starting place to just ask, okay, well, what are, I'm big on the Pareto principle, the 80-20 principle, which is this idea that the common pattern of just the universe is that often 20 or so percent of inputs lead to 20 or so percent of the outputs. So,

Anya Smith:
I mean 80, 20% of

Jackson Kerchis:
or

Anya Smith:
the

Jackson Kerchis:
sorry,

Anya Smith:
input,

Jackson Kerchis:
see,

Anya Smith:
yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
80. So 20% lead to 80, thank you. And oftentimes it's more extreme. Maybe 1% of cities have 95% of the global population.

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
And so I think, okay, well, what are maybe the two or three things that are having a kind of a disproportionate effect on bringing my happiness down? And that's where you get to being context dependent because it might be, Oh, I actually love my job and I'm making good money and I have good work life balance, but my relationship with my partner has been taking a toll on me lately. Right. Conversely, maybe you're saying, Oh, I'm super fit and I'm sleeping a lot, but Uh, my job is just really, really boring and it's draining. So it's context dependent, but I think that self assessment and then oftentimes it's, I think we tend to know what's we need to do and say, well, is it a sleep thing? Is it whatever? Um, and I think that's a good place to start.

Anya Smith:
Yeah, I love it. A, thank you for being very just humble and transparent and sharing your experience, you know, even the follies and like, that's the real truth of it. Like we're never perfect. That's why it's called practice. Right? We don't call it perfect, perfect mindfulness. It's always a practice. And to your point, like I want to challenge you both like you can be happy now. What if what if in this crazy world that tells you need all this to be x, y, z, like what if this moment can be beautiful in its own way and I struggle with this too, but I I think I have the blessing of having kids who are like, demand your attention right now, whether it's a poopy diaper or whatever it is, or just like, and they have to pull you in the moment and remind you like, hey, like be present now and realize like there is some beauty in it. And if you don't have kids, that's totally fine. But that's the challenge for everybody listening. What is the, what is the happiness of this moment? And that's the neuroscience perspective. Like I keep reminding myself that if I train my brain, which is like a highway, right? Like whatever path you constantly pursue, your brain's gonna be, okay, automatic, let's go there. If you've ever been on autopilot, like you do something consistently, you don't need me thinking about it, your brain is very good at making those habits. So now if your habit is always like, I need to achieve X to be happy, then when you achieve it, you're not gonna be happy because your brain's already, okay, well, what's the next thing? So that always scares me and reminds me, like it kicks me in the butt, like, okay, well, what can I do to train myself a little bit better about appreciating the moment right now and being happy right now? Because tomorrow is not promised, right?

Jackson Kerchis:
Yeah, absolutely.

Anya Smith:
And the last thing I want to mention or talk about, and feel free to share anything else, is like, now you're doing this business, mindfulness means business. What is kind of your purpose around it as you see it now? And maybe what's exciting you in the future in terms of the impact that you want to share?

Jackson Kerchis:
Yeah, I appreciate that. So I would say our mission right now is that in the next two years, we wanna help over 400,000 professionals and 100,000 servicemen and women be happier at work. And that sort of starts with a lot of the training and speaking work we do. So oftentimes on the kind of corporate side, again, we try to be mindful of its happiness means business. And

Anya Smith:
Mm-hmm.

Jackson Kerchis:
that as much as what I love to do is say, hey, this is super fun, happy thing we do. Same thing when I'm coaching one-on-one with people, whether it's career transition stuff is a common one I do or helping maybe a senior leader who's kind of burnout re-engage.

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
It's like, I want it to be grounded as well in performance outcomes, right? So I don't know, one case study I think I touched on earlier is we have a $600 million revenue trucking company that was having... uh, financial issues around like safety and compliance. And so we've led to huge reductions in their insurance claims and significant incidents, et cetera, through the lever of both some safety specific stuff, but also culture.

Anya Smith:
Mm-hmm.

Jackson Kerchis:
Same thing. One of the first people I worked with was a project manager. Uh, this was more one-on-one coaching and it was like, okay, well, we want to do some baseline measures around your kind of happiness.

Anya Smith:
Mm-hmm.

Jackson Kerchis:
but also around your sort of engagement and energy levels and your personal effectiveness and productivity. And even if they're just sort of self-report, it still gives that baseline. So

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
those are the corporate side. And then military really, I guess, similar thing is that across the US military right now, they're often facing challenges around retention and recruitment, facing increased competition often from private sector competitors. And then of course the ongoing, as we've all... seen, you know, soldier mental health issues are fairly common given the intense experiences they have. So that's sort of the other piece, um, in our corporate work.

Anya Smith:
I love it. There's so much meaning behind it. And I love that, again, it helps people at the root cause of like, how are they doing? How are they feeling? And helping them get to that ROI or impact as well. If you don't mind me asking, just like, as a follow up, you mentioned the transition career piece is a big part of what you do. Would you have any advice for people, like again, who are right now, whether they're in a place they're stuck, or like they're not feeling very fulfilled, or again, maybe they're laid off, and maybe they feel a little disheartened because the job market is a bit crazy. Would you have any advice for those in that current transition, like thinking about it? Like, is it worthwhile? Is it too late for me? Or maybe they're deeply at it, but maybe for having a frustrating time, anything you would share with those people. Or maybe they can work with you, like any advice you have around all of that.

Jackson Kerchis:
Yeah, well, I'm happy to work with folks. And then it starts off and with the number one question I ask is just, what are you optimizing for? Because if you examine things closely, oftentimes we are not optimizing for happiness, we're optimizing for achievement or progress or status

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
or something else. So that's a great place to start. And all kind of given that one other broad rule, and then I can get into some strategy.

Anya Smith:
Love it.

Jackson Kerchis:
So one final broad rule is just make sure you write stuff down, just get it out of your head, because what happens is where you tend to just be looping. And it's like, Oh, I could do this. Or maybe I'll go be a deliver for the post office or that I'll go start an ice cream truck and it's all just in here. And it's just often you're just looping over the same things.

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
Externalizing the mind is, is really important. Um, that being said, you know, if I were coaching, I often do a strengths assessment, Clifton strengths is really valuable. I might also do sort of a motivational assessment around what is behind. Why do you do what you do? But beyond that, I sometimes think of a useful framework is starting current industry and then other. And what I mean by that is there may be things in your current role that we sometimes call it like job crafting is the organizational psychology term, where you can sort of within the context of what works for your employer. You may be able to just modify your role a little bit. And that could mean taking on a few other things that you find more engaging and passing off a few things that you find more draining. So I would say start with your current role, right? Could you just tweak that? Could you expand it? Could you move internally, something like that? And maybe even simple as making, as you track your day, sometimes what I do is every activity I put down, I might just score it as like a negative one, zero or one. in terms of how energizing I find it. Right. And so maybe you look and say, actually, this job is pretty good. There's just these couple really big drainers that I wonder if I could work through, right? So start where you are. The next level out I say is can you transition within maybe a similar industry? So you can think about same industry, different role

Anya Smith:
Mm-hmm.

Jackson Kerchis:
or same role, different, different industry. But the way I think about that is you need to think about what is your strategic competitive advantage. So. You don't want to get into the sunk cost mindset, which is I bought $20. I spent $20 on a movie ticket and the movie sucks, but I spent $20. So I'm going to waste another hour of my time. That's irrational. But at the same time, if you're say, Hey, I have been a employee at Facebook and I have this really in-depth knowledge of community building before you think about, Oh, I'm just going to jump to suddenly something totally new. Is there something you could do that still? You have that strategic competitive advantage, but maybe it's some take on it that you would actually enjoy more. So it's like, Oh, well, actually I don't like the coding piece as much. So maybe I could look for a sales job where I'm selling a software around community building, right? So

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
that's kind of the next level. And then the third level would be something totally new and different, but I try to encourage people to think in that way, just cause I think there's a survivorship bias and the content we tend to get around. You know, you hear about, oh, I quit my job and worked super hard and now I'm a millionaire and I work 10 days a week or 10 hours a week on my yacht.

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
You don't hear about the stories where it didn't go so well. So

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
I say, you know, to kind of balance that out, think strategically about where do you already have an advantage? You already have the most experience and then expand out from.

Anya Smith:
I love that. I love that. And I think to your point, like it's challenging, start something new, but you can gain experience wherever you're at, whether it's within corporate, right? Or if you want to start, if you are a corporate, and you're like, I really want to expose area, start it at the same time, right? And cultivate like opportunities that are growing you. And I'm like, it's never too late. It's never too late to try something different, even if like, hey, I really am excited about tech, and I've never done it. Or resource like you may just give it a try, because nobody starts perfectly. Right. And there's always, you know, it's never too late to start something. I know I read that like the most successful age for entrepreneurs to start is like in their 40s. Like, and so whether you're around there or later, just to remind you, like, it doesn't mean that if you haven't started something when you were 20, um, you, that you should never even bother. Right. Um, and that's also part of like bringing more joy into your life. If you're like at your job and you're just, can't wait to retire. and it's decades away, maybe it's a sign that you need to find something that also brings you more life or re-energizes you or uses more of your skills that you want to bring to the table. So I love the different kind of layers and approaches you take for it. But like don't just, if something's uncomfortable and you don't enjoy it, but you just think, oh, but it's comfortable enough to where I can endure it longer. That's not a way to live, right? There's a lot more happiness to gain by at least cultivating a path towards something different, even if it takes you time to get there, even if it's step by step. I appreciate you sharing, again, I was enthralled by this idea of a happiness degree, and I love your mission behind it and the very strategic part of it. It's not just fluffy. It's very much like here, the neuroscience approaches here are different ways to find your strengths. Is there anything that we did not cover that you want to share about working with you or anything that's kind of exciting ahead that people should know of before we wrap up for three short bit questions?

Jackson Kerchis:
Yeah, maybe the one thing I'll touch on that we didn't get to too much is just a, here's a brief model that I use, whether you're thinking about your own work, how can I be happier at work or maybe managing a team? And

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
I often just say, think of it as, uh, all the questions that you could ask, right? Of what, who, why, and how. And I won't go too in depth here, but the, what is basics of like the role, like what are the activities you're doing? Is your compensation adequate or your benefits good? Is how is your work life balance? Are you taking care of yourself? Right? Very basic. The what? The who is also essential. And this is maybe broader than just work. This kind of work life happiness. The who is important and that you need to have connection and a feeling of psychological safety in your workplace. Psychological safety being, it sounds like, I don't know, this PC term or something, but it really just means you feel comfortable with other people and feel comfortable taking risks and even making mistakes in front of one another. You're not walking on eggshells. Then of course the Gallup best friend question. So

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
you think about first bucket is the what? Second bucket is the who? Then you have the why, which really comes down to meaning and purpose. So I often phrase I use as strengths based and values aligned. So you wanna think about what are my signature strengths? How am I using them to serve something greater than me? Whether it's my team, my organization, the community as a whole. And then... course values, like what really motivates you, what's important to you, and making sure that's aligned there as well. Again, if your number one value is like family and creative life and you're working 90 hours a week as a lawyer, it's going to be hard. Okay. So you have the what, the who, the why, and then finally the how to me is maybe the most nuanced. But ultimately what we find is it's really about cultivating a sense of intrinsic motivation. is where deep happiness and satisfaction with work comes from. And there are a few things to look at with that. Autonomy is important. A sense of mastery, sense of growth, a sense of getting into flow state.

Anya Smith:
Mm-hmm.

Jackson Kerchis:
So when you have all those sort of sub components checked in your work and you feel sort of like, you know, it's not purely intrinsic, you still want to be paid. But

Anya Smith:
Yeah.

Jackson Kerchis:
when you feel that sort of in sense of intrinsic, I actually kind of am drawn to the work,

Anya Smith:
Mm-hmm.

Jackson Kerchis:
that's... really essential. So when you put those all together, you have pretty much a comprehensive model that's going to hit on every factor that really is going to influence the happiness and quality of your working life.

Anya Smith:
Thank you so much for sharing it. And if you're listening, try to give this a go. For yourself, I think the power is in giving yourself time for reflection and figuring out those points as opposed to being like, I'm just going to keep at it, keep at it. I'm too busy for this kind of stuff. I don't have time. But if you're not at a place where you want to be, just take 10 moments because you're your most valuable asset. And again, I love your point that if you're somewhere where you're doing something and maybe it's not quite fitting in those areas right now. there are so many ways to pivot, whether it is to different company, right? Different companies can have the same role and have very different vibes and like atmospheres for how you do things, what is their culture, their nine to five structure and all like, there is a lot of opportunity out there. And one thing that I learned getting out of corporate for better or worse is like, that I was setting a lot of limits on myself thinking like, okay, I need to compress myself, like what is meta doing, how do people compare? And then I got out of there and they're like, there are billions of people. There's like international markets, they're international businesses. And I say that just like, if you're not somewhere where it's kind of like you're fitting in right now, maybe you feel like you're just holding yourself down, be different, whatever that is like, there is a world of other opportunities to explore. So it may not be instant, but that reflection on like the who, the what, the how, all these great points will help you figure out where you could be going to not change yourself, but embrace yourself in that right path. So thank you so much for sharing that. Well. I love it. Again, thank you for sharing that. If anybody wants to work with you, how should they find you?

Jackson Kerchis:
Well, the best place to do would be happiness means business.com. And there's information there about new speaking and training, but also one-on-one coaching work. Um, I think there should be, there's a link on there too, if you just want to have a free chat, uh, and then LinkedIn as well, just my name, Jackson Kirchis, I've post quite a bit on LinkedIn. Sometimes I'll even say, Hey, I need some help or I want to try this freebie, whatever, uh, so those would be the two places to be.

Anya Smith:
I love that. And again, just talking to you, I can tell that you read a lot, you have a lot of insights on TED Talks, on good books, on good quotes, so definitely check out your LinkedIn resource for a lot of that information in a digestible way. Okay, my friends, so we're gonna wrap up and I do a three short bit kind of question. So if it's one word, a kind of short paragraph, whatever you take, like whatever comes naturally. That sound

Jackson Kerchis:
Sounds

Anya Smith:
good?

Jackson Kerchis:
good.

Anya Smith:
Okay. What's a misconception people often have about your past success that you'd like to clear up?

Jackson Kerchis:
uh, that it was, that it was, I'm responsible for it.

Anya Smith:
Okay, okay, this is going to be hard because you have a lot of good ones. What's a personal mantra, a quote that you live by?

Jackson Kerchis:
Hmm As you go through life following your own path birds will shit on you don't bother to brush it off That's Joseph Campbell

Anya Smith:
Oh my god. Okay. That gets me thinking. Last but not least, in the positive context, going off track is.

Jackson Kerchis:
Probably a lot of fun and a lot more interesting than doing something boring.

Anya Smith:
You're honest, like you're got it. Well, hey, Jackson, this was so much fun for me. Thank you for sharing your experience. And I hope to all of our listeners, like this gives you a sense, like you can build your own path. If you were thinking like, oh, nobody teaches happiness, like you could teach happiness, right? You could bring your own happiness insight into the world and make it impactful and make it mean business, just like Jackson is doing. So don't limit yourself, explore your own path, take time for reflection. And also if this was interesting for you and you found some takeaways, Don't just keep it to yourself, share it for friends, share any questions you have for us and connect with us so we can also be part of your journey if helpful. And as always, I really appreciate your time and thank you for coming right off track with us. We look forward to having you next time and thank you again, Jackson. Pleasure. Okay. And it's stopping.